Have Firaxis Abandoned BtS?

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Totally owned these days.

Edit: Looks like EA is trying to buy all of Take-Two. Maybe Firaxis will be part of the EA family soon.
 
I only think that you should be able to take the game back to the store and have your money back. Companies releasing buggy games get a decent amount of flack from the press.

I wish there was a good way to establish this law without the fear of piracy encouragement being an issue. Civ 4 is a game I would have enjoyed getting my money back on and just waiting for complete.

As to the arguement of of the lawsuit. Meh, but it should be said that the advertised system requirements were wrong, the advertised "built from the ground up for multiplayer" is broken. (And has had peer and sync issues since day one.) As well as the known memory leak that has plagued the game from day one aims at poor programming and compiled together should make a decent grounds for a case. I am no lawyer but I am a registered voter, thus could end up on a jury.

I too am done paying to Beta test games for Firaxis personally. Anyone who wishes to has my blessing, but if things are going to continue down this road with this title, it is sadly stepping down from its platform and going all the way down to bargain bin game for me. It had a good run I guess. I didn't patch any of my civ games until this sequel so I didnt go through it with 3. But once is enough.
 
But does it function to the specifications within the manual? I'd argue no.


I didn't say *I* would sue. I was merely responding to the person that said there is no law requiring that the software work, which isn't true.


Only if they get Spock to do the reading. :D


Amazing that so many companies have become billion-dollar enterprises in software since no company is making money due to piracy.

Now, if I was a young law office wanting to make a name for myself, I might consider filing a class action lawsuit against a video game (PC) manufacturer. I'd line up one that releases a 1.01 patch on Day-1, and then I'd hire some experts to show the percentage of purchasers that actually download patches (not nearly as high as people on this forum think). I could, easily therefore, prove to a high level of proof that the company knowingly shipped a product with flaws to X% of the consumers. I'd subpoena the company's internal bug listing, and any bug not listed as closed on the day the software went gold would be a gigantic red mark I could argue to a jury. I bet I'd win.

Now, I suspect that the actual payout in claims would be rather small. I'd be mainly doing it for the publicity.

But software companies might clean up their acts a bit, and we might start seeing software at a "2nd patch" level right on the store shelves.

Excellent post :goodjob:

I personally hate the modern day fact, that virtually any new software for PC is nowadays released in a format which the company knows will not quite work properly. What's taken for granted, is that anyone who actually cares enough about the sortware working right, wil probably be connected to the internet, and will most likely be willing to download and install patches.

Here's a slightly abstract example of where that doesn't work. My dad saw a software/hardware product in a national paper, which was basically a fancy cassete deck that would clean up old tapes and convert them to a cd format. He ordered it, the product arrived, and when he installed, it wanted Itunes, which he didn't have. So I took a copy over and installed it for him.
Now he's getting old, doesn't want to bother with the internet, and hasn't got a connection, and this software just wouldn't run without one (it kept trying to connect to the itunes store, couldn't, and refused to work). So he rang the customer service, and they explained that it needed to connect to the internet to work. He asked them "Why didn't the advert state this"....they're reply was "oh sorry, we just assume everyone is"...(they did though immediately refund his money and send a courier to fetch the product).

But back to modern software. Doesn't that too basically require an internet connection (to get the inevitable patches) to work properly?

I'd love to see that one the box :- "Product probably almost works correctly. Will require an internet connection to update, for when we get round to actually making it work as it should"....;).... (and mass PR department suicides to follow)

And note that this isn't in the slightest a dig at Firaxis; I think CIV IV works better out of the box than most contemporary software.

I'll leave you with a little example "Tiger Woods PGA TOUR '07", which I bought for my old XBOX. 20 mins into my first game "In Career Mode", on my 3rd hole, I began to think "this is a little strange?" no wind at all. A few holes later still no wind. So I had a look at all the menus and settings, went through the manual, and yep I should have some wind. So I look around the internet boards, and apprently the PS2 version had the same problem, no wind at all in Tournament and Career modes (the only ones I'd bother with).

So after about 10 emails back and forth to EA (mostly them accusing me of doing something wrong, me quoting others findings that they had the same), they eventually admitted to me that somehow they'd forgot to allow wind for career and tournament modes....(an earlier email from them had someone state that it was deliberate :lol: :lol: , you gotta love customer support dpts squirming).....playing a round of an otherwise very decent golf sim game, where there is never any wind, is like playing Madden with no punting or EPs allowed, for example...:crazyeye: How on earth that got past testing is completely beyond my comprehension (was it even tested at all?).... No attempt was ever made to patch it.........

Anyways, apologies for long rant...laters :)
 
I personally hate the modern day fact, that virtually any new software for PC is nowadays released in a format which the company knows will not quite work properly.
"Virtually any" ??? Just take out the virtually why don't you.

I took a class in computational theory back in the day, one interesting thing I picked up is there's a theorem in computational mathematics which states that any program beyond a trivial level of complexity is impossible to test 100%, therefore one should just come to expect there'll be bugs. This basic fact is what caused the French Ariadne rocket to crash on it's test flight 15-20 years ago, and has led to repeated multi-billion dollar attempts to replace the air traffic control system and the core software controlling the power grid to be scuttled. People are afraid to change this anicent decript > 50 year old programs because they know they are proven, and notihing that might replace them could be.

So I hope this desire for a patch to fix the major known problems does NOT get conflated with this pie-in-the-sky demand that all software a consumer ever buys for $30 be *perfect.* Cause you might as well be asking a gas-powered car that has 0.00% pollution emissions.

According to the Federal Trade Commission, which is the governing law covering any games sold in the Unites States, there actually is.

Warranty Law according to the FTC

Now, would anyone be able to sue and recover money because the items in the manual don't work exactly right? Maybe or maybe not, but I bet a lawyer would love to fire a class action lawsuit and see what he could get for it.
Man, you must have too much time on your hands or something. Please try to find something to spend it on that's productive (which does not include investigating suing)
 
Well. I'd guess this thread pretty much sums up why Firaxis keeps quiet on anything not already released in a press-release
 
Man, you must have too much time on your hands or something. Please try to find something to spend it on that's productive (which does not include investigating suing)

Google. It's a life saver. That quote took me almost 8 seconds to find.
 
Give me a break. People have a right to complain. Some of you guys must work for Firaxis or something the way you blindly defend them or say, "this is the reason Firaxis keeps quiet." Get real.
 
Somehow it is acceptable in the software business to realease unfinished and flawed products and then maybe fix it afterwards. Just think if car companies did the same. " at the moment there`s a tiny bug in your new Chevy, you can only make left turns, but we expect to release a "right - turn compatible patch" in a few months....:lol:
 
Everything has recalls due to what would be "bugs". We had a mass recall of beef last week because of a bug in the slaughtering process. Cars have bugs that require recalls. I bought a 95 dodge neon when I was in high school, and believe me that thing was plenty buggy. It is acceptable in every business to release products that are flawed, it isn't just firaxis.
 
Just think if car companies did the same. " at the moment there`s a tiny bug in your new Chevy, you can only make left turns, but we expect to release a "right - turn compatible patch" in a few months....:lol:

I guess you didn't have a Dodge Caravan (I did). It had known issues with the transmission (I went through 2) and the steering column. Due to a screwy integrated switch system doing things like putting on a turn signal would cause the windshield wipers to go on (or off).
 
That's a contradictory statement King of Town.

If it was "acceptable" to release flawed beef as you say, then why did they RECALL IT. duh

I'm sure they consider it acceptable if, in the long term, it results in their profit margin being higher than it would be if they consistently exercising stringent quality control. I'm sure we (as a group, through our actions) treat it as acceptable, even if it we may not consider it so in some impotent sense, if we act in a way that keeps those profit margins high. Basically, I can say "This is unacceptable" if Safeway sells a bad cut of beef... But if I'm back there buying a steak next week, I've effectively voted with my feet, and sent a clear message that I have accepted them doing this from time to time, whether I complain or not.

In short... If they sell bad beef and recall it, but keep on operating in a way that may end up with them releasing bad beef in the future, and we keep buying their beef... We're treating it as acceptable in some sense or another.
 
Don't buy the beef o.o

If people actually did this, there would be no demand for the beef, and there would stop being beef to buy. People DO buy the beef, they KEEP buying the beef, therefore, something that organization is doing is acceptable to them... And that includes more than a few meat retailers who have sold bad beef on multiple occasions.

Anyways, Firaxis sold us a great cut of beef that has us throwing up after an exceptional meal with it. We're still buying, so whether or not we say "This is not acceptable"... We're pretty obviously accepting it when it comes to putting our money where our mouth is.
 
This is beside the point but a mistreated cow doesn't necessarily give bad tasting meat -.-
So the consumer can't really make a judgement until after he/she finds out how shady the retailer is.

In civ's case though I would likely buy any future iterations cuz I love civ. Simple as that.
 
I work for the Intellectual Property Group in the Litigation Department of one of the nation's largest law firms, I play CIV religiously, and I have a few comments about the prospect of a lawsuit against Firaxis:

Firstly, I think everyone here is vastly underestimating the legal costs associated with such a litigation. A litigation of this sort would consist of a lot more than simply getting a lawyer, filing a lawsuit, and showing up at the couthouse to argue in front of a judge.

Simply discussing the issue with a lawyer is the first step. A respectable lawyer in this field would probably cost at least $400/hour, and this fee generally must be paid regardless of if the potential litigation progresses any further than an initial in-depth discussion. After that discussion, the lawyers then must conduct an initial review. A team of lawyers will generally be assigned to this task. The initial review will generally consist of multiple interviews with the purchaser of the game, an in-depth review of any documentation the purchaser has produced, an in-depth review of the game, as well as a research of relevant legal issues. This process, even for the most mundane issues can easily surpass 100 billable hours, with each hour costing probably an average of around $300/hour, if the potential litigant is able to work out a nice deal with the law firm. Lastly, please keep in mind that the above narrative only refers to a lawsuit involving one plaintiff. Obviously, these costs skyrocket for each potential plaintiff that may be added.

After the initial review, the lawyers then make a determination of the merits of the case and find the laws that have been abrogated. This is when it starts to get really expensive. First, there are court filings, the initial complaint. The initial complaint is always amended. After that there are interrogatories and requests for production. Now, the costs of preparing court filings is not particularly exorbitant, but afterwards that changes quickly. Firaxis' doubtless has myriad documentation pertaining to CIV 4, and each file that pertains to CIV 4 would be produced by Firaxis. A team of reviewers comprising your lawyers will then have to review each and every document. Then there are depositions for every plaintiff as well as every programmer that worked on CIV 4. After that, the plaintiffs would need to retain at least one expert in software development. A qualified expert with any kind of previous courtroom experience will easily cost around $500/hour. He will need to be paid to review their documents, prepare reports, give depositions, and then testify.

And on top of all of that, you have all the legal wrangling. Orders to Show Cause, Summary Judgment hearings, and the plethora of motions that are filed in actions like this all cost significant amounts of money, especially if the you have to pay your lawyers to travel significantly.

I cannot stress enough that every action undertaken by your lawyers as listed above must be paid from the plaintiff's pocket to a tune of probably around $250/hour, if you get a good rate.

Not only that, but these costs will generally be significantly less for Firaxis. Most of the original work for Firaxis would be done by their in-house counsel. Plus, they wouldn't even need to start building their defense until the plaintiff filed a complaint. Even then, almost all of the relevant documentation would be Firaxis', and they are likely very familiar with their own documents, so their discovery-related costs will ultimately be negligible as compared to the plaintiff. Most of Firaxis' costs will be put into filing motions to extend the litigation, experts and legal research.

Finally, after what usually amounts to several years, the case may finally come up for trial, and a trial like this would probably take a minimum of 3.5 days. Then, you are relying on a jury of your peers to remain focused while Firaxis does absolutely everything in their power to confuse and mislead them. Plus, you are also hoping that they see things your way and not only find them guilty of the charges but also compensate you enough to cover the costs of a litigation that probably cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to execute.

Thus far everything I have said pertains generally to corporate litigations of all sorts. Obviously, it would make little sense for Bob from Albany to file a lawsuit on his own unless he was a masochist that really needed to blow a couple hundred thousand bucks. Accordingly, we are probably talking about a class-action lawsuit, the mechanics of which I am not quite familiar with.

Many class-action lawsuits are funded by a core group of primary witnesse/plaintiffs, but they are usually almost completely funded on a contingency basis, which means the law firm only gets paid if they receive damages or a settlement from Firaxis.

This is what prevents Bob from Albany from making a trip down to New York, popping in to a top-notch law firm, finding a new associate, and convincing him to file a class-action suit. I'll bet that this has actually happened, maybe not in specific reference to CIV, but with other games, and the same thing happened as would happen at my law firm. Namely, the associate would listen to the potential plaintiff, take in the merits of the case, and do a little research. He would map out the potential costs of such a litigation and review case law to determine the probability of achieving a monetary reward, either through favorable verdict or settlement. My guess is that this kind of superficial review has been done many times by firms big and small, but so far no big case has gotten to court on this issue because they find too big problems:

One: It would be extremely costly.
Two: The chances of recouping any of the money spent on the litigation would be extremely low.

Now, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the chances of success, either through a settlement or favorable verdict, is higher than I think. I doubt it, but I can's say for certain. I haven't looked at any case law, nor have I worked on any cases that are similar to this.

But, I have played every iteration of CIV since Civ II. I play BTS almost every night, and I have not downloaded the "unoffical" release. And with that said, were a lawsuit to ever be docketed on this issue, and if I were contacted by either party to testify concerning the game, I would say that I have played BTS extensively on a computer that barely meets the minimum requirements, often times for hours on end, and I have never once found the game to be so buggy as to be unplayable or unenjoyable. I feel that I have been repaid many times over for the meagre $40 or $50 I initially spent for the game.

Maybe it is a disappointing development to some people, but the Internet has changed the computer industry. Personally, I think it is great. Instead of snail mailing the manufacturer or buying the latest software just to fix flaws in the original product, all I have to do now is navigate to a website and download the appropriate file, regardless of whether my problem is with my mobo, a device driver, the O/S, or some other piece of software.

The main price I pay for this convenience is in the frustration and costs associated with the occasional buggy product. Now, by no means am I a big-time gamer. On my computer I have all the Half-Life games, all the Call of Duty games, most of the Total War Series, and CIV, Warlords and BTS. Out of the box every single one of those games has been playable for me, and the game has been exactly what I thought it would be. In short, I have been satisfied by my purchases.

Maybe the problem is that software is just naturally buggy, as a few posters have pointed out. In fact, I'm not sure I have a bug-free piece of software on my computer. My original BIOS didn't like my sound driver. My O/S has tons of bugs that have required dozens if not hundreds of updates from Microsoft over the years. Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel still have bugs and intricacies that have not been addressed. Rome:TW had bugs on its first release, and a very few select units in MTW2 didn't work as claimed. I had a minor graphical bug with either Warlords or BTS. All of these bugs have since been fixed though various updates.

Now, maybe it is true that software developers are releasing products on a shortened development cycle, but as far as I can tell, with only a few extraordinary exceptions, they are releasing software that works for the wide majority of users, and they are doing it earlier than they would be able to otherwise. Once again, it is a cost-benefit analysis, and my guess is that the developers have determined that it is both more profitable for them as well as more desirable for the consumers that software is released in this fashion.

Ultimately, all of these factors doom the prospect of litigation against Firaxis. It would simply cost too much, and the prospect of success would be too low. In fact, I would imagine BTS to be a disastrously poor test case for the type of litigation I have seen suggested on these boards. Surely, there are software products that have more fatal flaws and are produced by more corrupt corporations with deeper coffers than Firaxis.

mm
 
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