Help a bankrupt Catherine

Bast

Protector of Cats
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
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Location
Sydney, Australia
Whenever I play as Catherine I get the urge to build a lot of cities and expand very very quickly especially using the 'creative' culture pop. But suddenly I find myself bankrupt. Sometimes so bad that science meter needs to be down to like 20% or 30% :eek:

Aside from getting more workers early and spamming cottages and beelining for Code of Laws for courthouses, what can you suggest?

What are some good money strategies for Catherine?
 
im not very good but...
head straight to the center, where theres no desert, tundra etc

spamming isnt such a good idea, if you dont use the financial bonus.. look for tiles with lots of 2 coins

just that... i dont spam cottages.. just build them at the right places
 
Only advice: stop expanding too fast. Running science at 20-30% isn't bad, if you're running around with a big invasion force destroying your competitors, but if you're at 20% just because you've built too many cities, you gotta stop it.
 
Example of slow expansion: 2 warriors in capital before second city, 2 warriors/archers in second city before third city, worker and building in capital before fourth city, worker and building and unit in second/third city before fifth city. After that courthouses, granaries and units. Usually start first wonder near founding of third city.
 
If you're only down to 20-30% science, you're nowhere near bankrupt ;)

I assume you're playing with the Warlords incarnation of Cathy (Cre/Imp) rather than the Vanilla version (Cre/Fin), so settler spam is actually a very valid strategy to grab yourself a good chunk of land. You picked up the two most obvious things with cottage-spam and CoL, but don't underestimate the power of scientist specialists either. If the financial bite comes between writing and useful economy techs like CoL and currency, tanking the slider down to 0% to squeeze every drop of commerce into supporting your burgeoning empire whilst using library-powered specialists to grab that next crucial tech to help drag you out of the mire is a very feasible solution (plus you'll get a GS or two out of it and they're always useful).

Another option is to use the whip in commerce-poor cities as smaller cities cost you less in maintenance and you won't be whipping away citizens bringing in gold.

One thing a lot of people miss is that it doesn't matter too much where you are technologically in 1AD or even 1000AD if you can keep the AI from warring against you. If you've expanded like crazy and have the most land, you'll quickly catch up once you've rebuilt your economy.
 
I play on Noble and dont find it that bad to run at 20% for 50 turns...If I can have 5 cities more than my neighboor I guess he's in deep trouble more than If I had 4 cities with a science at 90%. Maybe I overexpanded though in my last game though because I had to run 0% of science for a long time I was like having -20 gold/turn...I manage to turn to the positive side with 4 gold left...I dont know what would have happened.

anyway after that if nobody stopped, i'm off to victory once I have built courthouses and markets.
 
Bast said:
Whenever I play as Catherine I get the urge to build a lot of cities and expand very very quickly especially using the 'creative' culture pop. But suddenly I find myself bankrupt. Sometimes so bad that science meter needs to be down to like 20% or 30% :eek:

Aside from getting more workers early and spamming cottages and beelining for Code of Laws for courthouses, what can you suggest?

What are some good money strategies for Catherine?

Do you do the Oracle/CS slingshot for Bureaucracy? That increases commerce and production 50% in the capital early in the game.

You could also be developing more commerce from buildings like marketplaces and banks.

You might also try using low-cost but effective civics like Slavery and Hereditary Rule.
 
Run a SE instead of a CE.

SE will allow you to go down to 0% on the research slider without loss of scientist research income.

Wodan
 
You don't need a lot of early cities with Catherine. The power of the creative/imperialistic combination is that you can build border cities first to block off land from the AI (making use of peaks and lakes) to be filled in at your leisure. Admittedly this means delaying open borders for a while and the maintenance of your initial cities will be a bit higher than normal (since they're further away) but the slow back expansion allows you to build up a strong economy over a territory size of your choosing, unimpeded by the AI.
 
20% is hardly bankrupt.

I have played games where I was at zero and had over a -100 deficit. That is when it starts disbanding units to pay for it...
 
Murky said:
Do you do the Oracle/CS slingshot for Bureaucracy? That increases commerce and production 50% in the capital early in the game.

You could also be developing more commerce from buildings like marketplaces and banks.

You might also try using low-cost but effective civics like Slavery and Hereditary Rule.

I hardly ever use Bureaucracy but maybe I should. Usually I'm stuck on Vassalage because of the free units and XP.

Maybe I'm not doing so bad after all. Or maybe I'm just used to Victoria's financial trait. :lol:
 
So I take it you're playing in Warlords and so don't have the financial trait for Cathy.

Bureaucracy is an excellent civic, plus it has medium upkeep instead of the high upkeep for Vassalage. I rarely use Vassalage, and if I do it it's only when I'm building my army. Otherwise Bureaucracy and later Free Speech are much better in my opinion.

If you're that low on research then it means a lot of your commerce is turned into gold. As Murky said, you could boost it through markets and banks so that they will allow you to run a higher science rate. Also, look at how much maintenance costs you in each city. If it's pretty high then build a courthouse in there. Also build the Forbidden Palace pretty early if you have that many cities. Try to have two poles in your empire: one in the capital, one in the city with Forbidden Palace, so that you can reduce the "distance" maintenance everywhere. Don't worry now about later conquests, you'll either have enough money from economy/razings to support them, or you could try building/rushing with a Great Engineer the Versailles wonder to create a third pole.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some civics remarks:

- if you have a cottage filled or heavy production capital you're probably better off running Bureaucracy most of the time. (not so if you're farming it for GPs, but you shouldn't do that anyway) And use Theocracy to get 2 more XP for your units for two promotions (with +3 from Barracks). An additional 2 XP from Vassalage won't get you anywhere.

- when building units switch to war civics: Theocracy (+optionaly Vassalage, maybe for mounted units?), Slavery (if you've been running Caste System) and try to shorten as much as you can the unit building period. Don't be afraid of multiple unhappiness from repeated whips.

- you'll most likely need infrastructure after a period like this to support the troops and the war. Hence using Organized Religion. Avoid things like: half your cities build infrastructure, half of them build units. You won't make good use of the civics this way.

- slavery is great for getting infrastructure in newly conquered cities. Many times they are too angry/starving to use their full population, so whipping them to get theaters, courthouses, granaries, etc is your best bet.

- if you're running lots of specialits, consider not expending too much through war. You're better off running Pacifism to boost your Great Person creation, and that's incompatible with a large army. Remember that it gets harder and harder to get the next Great Person, so at some point Pacifism runs its course. OrgRel, Theo or Free Religion will be better choices.


You might want to try playing with a Spiritual civ to make best use of the civics changes. Just don't forget to change them. ;)
 
NKVD said:
...in my last game because I had to run 0% of science for a long time I was like having -20 gold/turn...I manage to turn to the positive side with 4 gold left...I dont know what would have happened.

I know what would have happened. Once your treasury gets to zero, you start losing units! You get a message saying, "Can no longers support Swordsman" or something, and your unit just disappears. I'm sure the programming code has some logical way of deciding which units to eliminate, but it's sure not the units I'd choose to lose. Often it seems they're the ones furthest from your capital, which is just where you don't want to lose units, usually. Not a pleasant situation to be in. Though I think that some Civic allows Deficit Spending, which I haven't really investigated yet, but sounds like you can go below zero in your treasury without losing units.
 
Bast said:
I hardly ever use Bureaucracy but maybe I should. Usually I'm stuck on Vassalage because of the free units and XP.

Maybe I'm not doing so bad after all. Or maybe I'm just used to Victoria's financial trait. :lol:

I think on the higher levels of play, Bureaucracy is the better choice. Your capitial will have 50% more production and commerce. You'll get enough coin to pay for units maintenance and the extra production needed to produce more of them. You can pick up additional XP with Theocracy if you want. I find it uneccessary for most games. You mainly need a tech and numbers advantage over your rivals. Your units will get promotions from winning battles. In Warlords, Great Generals will emerge often enough that you should have all the XP you'll ever need.
 
Bradlius said:
I know what would have happened. Once your treasury gets to zero, you start losing units! You get a message saying, "Can no longers support Swordsman" or something, and your unit just disappears. I'm sure the programming code has some logical way of deciding which units to eliminate, but it's sure not the units I'd choose to lose. Often it seems they're the ones furthest from your capital, which is just where you don't want to lose units, usually. Not a pleasant situation to be in. Though I think that some Civic allows Deficit Spending, which I haven't really investigated yet, but sounds like you can go below zero in your treasury without losing units.

What would be cool is that once you reach democracy you can spend more than you win just like nowadays countries (except Canada) then you would have a debt for a few turns and have interests...
 
There is nothing wrong with what you have done as long as:

- You can still tech to currency and code of laws - these are the two techs you need to make large empires viable.
- You don't reach zero with a deficit and start disbanding units.
- You aren't so far outteched by the AI that they attack you with a tech lead.

If you can keep your expansion going quickly but not so quickly you run into the problems above, then you are going to catch up once your larger number of cities grow their cottages (you do have lots of workers going don't you) and build their infrastructure.

The exception to this is if your cities are in marginal locations. Early on you only really want to settle cities in really good locations - try to claim a couple of specials with each city if you can. You should be able to see a clear role for the city (commerce/production/GP) and be convinced that the city will be contributing to your empire fairly quickly.

Generally its best with a creative civ to leave some large gaps for future cities in less optimal locations and only settle the very best locations. Your culture will still claim the land and block out the AI.
 
Get a religion... build a shrine. That is my most effective way to stay above 80% at all times. Get 1 more religion if you can for good measures...
 
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