Help me date this world map

Lotus49

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Just for kicks. Catch: You can't see the map, because it's physically in my hand. I'll have to describe it. It's kind of hard to see details, but I'll do my best.

NORTH AMERICA:

Alaska is labelled "Russian Possessions"

(What is now) Canada is labelled "British Possessions"

"Canada" IS on the map, but it's real small, down there near Ottawa, or Toronoto. "British Possessions" is written many times larger, over the whole country.

The Oregon Treaty 'appears' to have already happened, but it's hard to be certain.

The United States of Central America appears to have already broken up - the borders look more like modern-day central America... but, they are hard to see. It could be the map is just showing State borders. But I don't see the USCA name anywhere. Forget about this - it's too tough to see. I now realize I can't make anything out in central America.

SOUTH AMERICA:

Colombia is called "New Granada". (?)

Ecuador still has it's arrowhead pre-WWII era shape (naturally) - (area now owned by Peru)

Bolivia borders the Pacific Ocean (now that area is part of Chile)

EUROPE:

Finland is part of the Russian Empire, though it is labelled on the map, along with Lapland - all part of Russia.

The map says Prussia, over northern Germany - but it also says Germany, a little below that. "Germany" is straightened, and in bold though. But, "Prussia" is actually larger. Don't ask me. It's really tough to tell, but it doesn't look like Germany has been united yet. Though, if it hasn't, the map maker didn't put much effort in showing detail with all the German sub-states. But yeah, going by Germany's pre-WWI borders, the country is not all one color, especially in the NW, and southern areas.

It also says "Austria", not Austria-Hungary.

The Ottoman Empire controls all of what is now Iraq, Syria, and maybe part of Jordan. Egypt seems to have some other areas, like Lebanon, Palestine, but, it's really hard to read those details, in the Holy land.

Everything from most of (what used to be) Yugoslavia, down to (Kuwait) is labelled "Turkey".

Everything south of that, is "Arabia"... basically the entire Arabian peninsula.

(Back to Europe)
Ireland is completely within/controlled by the UK

Wallachia is on the map.

I can't tell if Norway is independent, it is labelled though.



AFRICA:

Mostly/nearly completely uncolonized... about 80% of the continent -mostly the interior- is total virgin territory. Even the coasts don't look like European colonization has gotten started much. They seem to be more 'native'-sounding nation names, with different borders. As far as colonization - It does look like the British have started messing around in the very southern part of the continent, though.

I can see the following nations: Tunis, Tripoli, Egypt, Nubia, Abyssinia, Zanzibar. As for the rest of the coast around the continent, it's all a bunch of names I don't recognize, and can't see well enough to spell accurately... but there's quite a few of them, here and there, and their borders don't correspond to anything like we see on today's maps.

(What we now know as Lake Victoria), looks totally incorrect om this map. Really inaccurate.



ASIA / FAR EAST:

"Persia", not Iran.

No Afghanistan, instead "Cabool".

There's several countries south of Afghanistan on the coast - don't ask me what they are.

The "Russian Empire" is actually several different colors, with "Russia" being everything west of the Urals, "Siberia" east of that.

There's also "Toorkistan"... though that might be part of Russia - tough to tell.

The Russia/China/Mongolia area is too hard to describe, but suffice it to say that it looks very little like it does in modern times.

It APPEARS that Russia has already 'acquired' it's far-eastern lands from the "Chinese Empire" (that hook that comes down and touches Korea).... but, basically everything east of the Urals & south of Russian Siberia is difficult to describe / define political borders. Very little resemblance to today.



Antarctica:

-has only been discovered/mapped in a few places. Major blank gaps, along the (would-be) coast... maybe 80% of it is completely unmapped.


Anyway,
It's tough to tell what the political borders are, versus what they're just labelling as in 'this area is known as XYZ'.

By far, the most interesting thing is Africa. Politically, it looks nothing at all like anything we see on today's maps.

Feel free to ask questions about further details.
 
Russia sold Alaska America at 1867.
Russia gained outer Manchuria at the Treaty of Aigun (1858) and Treaty of Peking(1860).
Austria-Hungary was formed 1867.

I guess it's from 1860 -1866.
 
The map of South-America seems to be a colonial one..so that's early 19th century. Could be anything up to 1850 though, based on South-America. My bet would be on pre-Bolivar times...but if Bolivia is labeled Bolivia..then it's about 1840 (edited) I think (if the middle-american countries are apart too, that should be it)

My question would be: how do the low countries look?
 
Well Turkey wasn't created until the breakup of the Ottoman empire in 1919.
 
But it might refer to the different parts of the Ottoman Empire as 'Turkey' and 'Arabia' - it was common to refer to the Ottoman government as the Turks for some time in Europe, and the territory held by them was all lost in the 19th Century.
 
Lotus49 said:
You can't see the map, because it's physically in my hand.

Could you not scan it and upload the image?
 
All of my knowledge of the world map in the 1800s comes from playing Victoria as well. I can't help any more than the posters that have already chimed in with details. I can hopefully give you some direction.

What states and territories existed in the United States? Many of the states and territories were formed and delineated in this time frame, and that would give you another bracketed time frame to work with. Especially if the time frame was anywhere between 1830s and 1870s, there were enough changes that you could get a small range of time to work with. Hopefully there is enough detail there to work with. The border with Mexico and with Texas changed a couple times too, before the 1840s time frame. Is California part of Mexico or the US? What about Texas? If there are no states or terrirories west of the mississippi, for example, that would put the map even earlier. If the -border is at the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo, you are talking 1848 and later.

South and Central America were in quite a flux as well. It's a shame you can't read much of the Central Americas. The Turkish holdings moved around a bit as well, and Greek independence can give you another date to work with there.

One issue is if the map is written on, it could have been updated by hand after the fact, putting some of the dates in question, especially if you find details that are histrically separate, say US Civil War details (1860s) and no Greece (war for independence from the turks: 1821-1832), and post oregon treaty boders (1846).
-Germany was an economic confederation long before it was a united country, and Prussia was the largest state. Most certainly pre-unification (<1871).
-Greece, 1832+ (maybe even 1821+)
-California annexed to the US? 1848+... California belongs to mexico? 1821-1848
-Oregon Treaty, 1846+
-Russian Alaska, before 1867
-Austria instead of Austria-Hungary, again before 1867
-Bolivia formed in 1825
-Colombia was formed from New Grenada and Venezuela during the time frame 1819-1821 so, 1821+ if Columbia is mentioned. Inconclusive if not. New Grenada was renamed sometime after that (edit - 1856 per Warman17 renamed to "Confederacion Grenadina").
-Finland doesn't help. It was under Russia from 1809 to 1917.
-Canada was a province that consisted of Ontario and Quebec from 1840 until 1867. Before 1840 it was upper and lower canada. After 1867, the Dominion of Canada was formed out of the whole of British North America, and the provinces Ontario and Quebec were defined from the land previously known as Canada.

Definitive upward bound based on many multiple details given? 1867 Way too many changes in the world map that year.
Possible upward bound from New Grenada reference - 1856

The existence of Bolivia makes pre 1825 unlikely. If outer Manchuria is really inside the borders and is the color of russia/siberia, hannurabi is probably on track. 1848 is the dividing line between California/Mexico and California/US
and so on... you have made great progress. I see only a few decades to work with, and more detail where the map changes in that time frame can cut it down even more. I think the march of states across the United States can give you the quickest roadmap of dates without having to look up too many sources, but didn' mention how much detail was included there.

Sorry I couldn't help more. It seems that you start with the 1840s and diverge from there until you hit a defining event.
 
The War of the Pacific, sometimes called the Saltpeter War in reference to its original cause, was fought between Chile and the joint forces of Bolivia and Peru, from 1879 to 1884. Chile gained substantial mineral-rich territory in the conflict, annexing both the Peruvian province of Tarapacá and the Bolivian province of Litoral, leaving Bolivia as a landlocked country.

and the Peru - Ecuador issuse happened in 1941

So at a minimum i would say iy was before 1879
 
Elta said:
and the Peru - Ecuador issuse happened in 1941

So at a minimum i would say iy was before 1879

Colombia wasn't called Granada anymore at that point of time, and Germany would already have been united.. so that makes it (b) before 1871 and (a) before +- 1850.

And may I point out I spoke of 1848 too. :p
 
"adopted then the name "Nueva Granada", which it kept until 1856 when it became the "Confederaci&#243;n Granadina" (Grenadine Confederation). In 1863 the "United States of Colombia" was created, lasting until 1886, when the country finally became known as the Republic of Colombia."

so before 1856 even.
 
Pre-1867 of course, but my best guess would be the 40ies. I'd say circa 1845-1849.
 
One thing I've noticed that no one has mentioned although similar comments have been made is date disparity. Obviously we are talking about the 1800s, they didn't get on the internet to find out about political changes in other parts of the world.

This map could have a 20 year disparity in the date range, especially if it was used by a sailor or someone who spent significant time away from civilization.

In regards to actual dating range and trying to pick out add-ins and things of that nature I will leave that to the rest of you as I'd rather not have to go load up Vicky to help.:lol:
 
Question? Does California belong to the US and, if so, is the border at Arizona and New mexico straight?

1846-1856 for sure... 1846-1848 if California belongs to Mexico, 1848-1853 if Calif. belongs to US and Arizona/Mexico border is squiggly, 1853-1856 if Gadsen Purchase line is US-Mexico border.

Oregon Treaty line suggests after 1846. Germany on the map suggests after 1848. New Grenada on the map suggests before 1856.

Update on research:

Canada formed from Upper and Lower Canada (what is now known as Ontario and Quebec) - 1840
Oregon Treaty sets US northern border west of rockies at 48th parallel as opposed to 54'40", ending dispute with British possessions - 1846 *
California and SW states annexed to US - 1848
Gadsen Purchase straightens the US/Mexico border - 1853
New Grenada renamed to Grenadine Confed.- 1856

Other points that don't help better than the above:
-USCA broke up earlier than Oregon treaty so you should see more modern borders... that's good.
-German Unification was a process started at the German National Assembly in Frankfurt, 1848 (Prussian King stating at the conference that the choice for the smaller German states is between Prussia and Austria) and ended with final unification in 1871 when the King of Prussia became Emperor of Germany, Wilhelm I, Kaiser und König.
-Gadsen Purchase, 1853, straightens out border line with mexico, west of Texas making the USA look like it does today.
-Bolivia lost ocean access to Chile in 1884.

Downside: Russia didn't get part of Outer Manchuria until 1858, though. This is outside the New Grenada time frame. Where is that line?
 
More research:
Oregon Treaty, 1846 - sets northern US border west of rockies to 48th parallel.
Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo, 1848 - Mexican territory all the way to California annexed by US.
Gadsen Purchase, 1853 - Border at Arizona and New Mexico straightened up, previously squiggly.
New Grenada renamed to Grenadine Confederation, 1856 (later renamed Colombia)
Russia acquiring parts of Outer Manchuria, 1858, 1861

Problem: New Grenada (before 1856) and Outer Manchuria annexed to Russia (after 1858) are mutually exclusive. Must have been when the map was in flux near this time frame.
 
Lotus49 said:
The Russia/China/Mongolia area is too hard to describe, but suffice it to say that it looks very little like it does in modern times.

Probably because until 1864 China owns the Semirech'ye basin (an area east of Lake Balkhash, Kazakhstan). From wikipedia: "During China's Qing Dynasty, the lake formed the northwestern-most boundary of the Empire. However, in 1864, the lake and its neighbouring area was ceded to Imperial Russia through what Chinese histories call an unequal treaty, The Sino-Russian Treaty on the Northwestern Boundary."

Lotus49 said:
It APPEARS that Russia has already 'acquired' it's far-eastern lands from the "Chinese Empire" (that hook that comes down and touches Korea).... but, basically everything east of the Urals & south of Russian Siberia is difficult to describe / define political borders. Very little resemblance to today.

The "Hook" is the Amur and Ussuri region and was acquired between 1858 - 1860.

So considering all the details it's safe to say that the map was from between 1860 - 1863, after China lost Ussuri and before the aquisition of Semirech'ye by Russia and around the time "Confederacion Granadina" changed its name to Colombia.
 
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