Help me finish off my game, or, how's about this for a fun scenario

[PaperBeetle]

Woah, that's a pretty nutty article. The strategy is centred around a newly-installed medieval democracy going out and securing luxuries, and basically boils down to: (1) head out to wherever the resources are with a combat settler and a huge stack of defenders, (2) combat settle, (3) let the AI attack and attack and attack until they are gassed, rushing more defenders as necessary, (4) your citizens will soon become horrendously unhappy, so turn them all into entertainers and let them starve!
Well it was written back in 2002, and I'd like to think we've developed slightly more elegant ways of handling war in weariable governments over the intervening years. That said, I didn't run this Sumerian War as carefully as I might have done. I'll write it up tomorrow.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Your game sounds very interesting PaperBeetle. I especially like the part about going to Democracy. For anyone who doesn't know, Moonsinger wrote an article on waging a war in a Democracy a while ago (for Vanilla).

I just don't think that is such a good article. If the level is just high enough, and you try to invade a different continent, or worse an island with just one civ, you are easily faced with so many units that it creates a real hard problem for any Democracy. And it is a hard problem, because at some point your government falls and you are thrown back to anarchy, unlike Republics where you can just bite trough the whole affair theoretically endlessly.

And if I interpret the numbers from Oystein's article correctly, then you can merely afford being attacked 45 times (or 60 times if you are not the aggressor) before your government falls. That is not all that much in and of itself. And if you consider that there are other sources of war weariness too, like when your attackers die or retreat, or your shores are being shelled, then the number of attacks that you can afford is much lower still.


But in all fairness, Moonsinger's article dates from before Oystein's article, so I guess that excuses and explains a lot.

 

[Spoonwood]

Yeah, we probably could use a better article for waging a war in a Democracy, I agree. That said, it's better to get attacked a bunch of times in general than to lose a city, and getting luxuries can prove very helpful.

 

[PaperBeetle]

1920ad
Computers completes as expected, and I go through The Big Picture to the town where I've stashed all my infantries, and upgrade them one by one to mechs. Zimbabwe completes transit and starts SETI at 102spt, prebuilding for Internet.
New research is Miniatures, and as SETI will take 10 turns, I set the science slider to bring Minis in at the same time. I can spend the extra cash rushing slaves.
New unit builds: 2 bombers, 2 artillery, 4 settlers, 1 worker, 11 slaves.

Right then, about that war. First I try booting Gil to see if I can get him to dow me, but of course he agrees to go quietly. The military advisor might think I'm average to Sumeria, but Gil obviously knows the truth! So I buy all his cash with an outrageous amount of gpt, and immediately dow him.
To protect myself from any untoward UN voting, I buy Pacha into the war, paying 133gpt. I then sell him Magnetism, Medicine and Steam to get back all that gpt, and more. Liz won't ally with me for any kind of reasonable price; I even try renegotiating our peace to include the alliance, but she's not having it, so I settle for taking her meagre treasury in the renegotiation, and leave her sitting on the sidelines.

Enough war-by-diplomacy, I turn my attention the actual business of fighting. The border is characterised by a long semi-circular mountain range just inside my territory. On my side of these mountains Gil has two towns, Grenoble and Pi Rameses, and his huge stack of 70 mechs / tanks. On the Sumerian side of the mountain range, I have two towns, Avaris and Herakleia.

I'm trying to engineer a situation in which Gil can't actually do anything to me on his turn. That means I have to either kill the 70 stack or surround it with enough armies that it can't go anywhere interesting. I don't know what is garrisoned in Grenoble and Pi Ram, but it would be a strategic disaster if anything popped out of them and started capturing my border towns. So I need to take those two towns for myself. And as for new units coming in from the east, I want them to somehow not reach the front lines.
A good solution to these problems would be, I think:
(1) use armies to pillage a complete break in the road system, from coast to coast, northeast of the Sumerian border towns,
(2) having used some of their moves pillaging, armies return to box the Stack of 70,
(3) with artillery support, the armour and mech divisions start taking Sumerian towns, starting with Grenoble and Pi Ram, then Abydos, then the four northern towns,
(4) if this push runs out of steam before all seven towns are taken, fortify the area with the mechs and continue next turn,
(5) deal with anything that Gil sends across the firebreak.

But that's not what I do, possibly because I'm getting sleepy and drunk. I start out okay, with artillery redlining defenders at Pi Ram and Grenoble, and elite armour taking those towns. But lulled into a false sense of security by this easy start, I decide to take on the Stack of 70. With armour. No retreats against fast defenders, no artillery support left, just 'human wave' tactics. Yep, this is how we get war weariness. Well, the results aren't as bad as they might have been, though I do have to eventually bring the armies in to help out. I lose 16 vet armour, 3 elite armour and an elite tank, but the stack is gone. Crank that luxury slider.

But now, with all my attackers used, I don't have any capacity to deal with the outstanding 5 Sumerian towns in the vicinity. So I fortify the passes through the mountain range with my healthiest armies, stuff the border towns with mechs just in case, and gift Avaris and Herakleia to the English. Not a great way to start the war, but at least my armies won't be tied up baby-sitting that stack.

 

[Buttercup]

Got back to this game today. 1967 and Sumeria are no more.

1898 to 1924 - hit 'End Turn' a lot.

1910 - Out of Anarchy, go to Monarchy. Unit costs are zero, Computers completes in 8 turns, finish upgrading everything except infantry. Retire my old ceremonial elite units to the Forests of Lyons - so nice looking at them, like a time-line of conquest.

1910 to 1924 - hit 'End Turn' a lot. England sign a Mutual Protection Pact with Iroquois.

1926 - Computers is learned, upgrade Infantry for a couple of turns.

1928 - Renew Mutual Protection Pact and Rights of Passage with Iroquois. Do not renew Mutual Protection Pact with Sumeria.

1932 - Attack Sumeria in the middle area after blocking the narrow choke point with Cavalry Armies. Take 8 cities and the front-line of Sumeria's army.

Interturn - Attacked by 1 tank - Iroquois and therefore England declare on Sumeria.

1934 - Take 5 more cities.

Interturn - looks like there will be no more attacks from Sumeria.

1936 - Middle area taken, move into the end-land beyond the Cavalry and take a load more cities, 15 in total this turn. Inca declare war on Sumeria, making it the full set.

1938 - Take 5 more cities, now bordering the Sumerian Culture area.

1940 - Take 5 more cities and move into Sumeria-proper.

1942 to 1954 - Slog through the Sumerian Culture and cities, start to lose count of how many I'm taking each turn. Last landed stronghold falls in 1954 excluding flip-backs.

1956 to 1965 - Chasing Sumeria across the Incan Island which Sumeria has decided to conquer for me.

1967 - Sumeria gone and the Incan Island is all mine also, though the game still says Inca are in the game, just with no cities (ho-hum).

The English Mutual Protection Pact with Iroquois has ended, but I keep renewing my deal with Iroquois and so now look forward to attacking England with Iroquois support for game-over. England may nuke me in the process, but it's only been about 10 turns since Manhatten so it wont be many if any.

 

[PaperBeetle]

1922ad
Gil sends a small stack of tanks into the mountain range, trying to reach one of my towns, but that's his only response this turn. Seems promising.
New unit builds: 1 artillery, 7 settlers, 7 workers, 24 slaves.

War weariness is 36% already. I take the closest three towns from Sumeria, and then, while most of units are healing up, I form my armies up across the narrow part of the continent (about 12 tiles wide). I leave a single unroaded gap through which I want Gil to push his newly built tanks...

1924ad
... but unfortunately, England is before Sumeria in the turn order. Liz tries to send an infantryman through to my side of the army wall, blocking it for Sumerian troops. Meanwhile, Gil's bombers have arrived in Portugal, and they concentrate on hitting the armies at the east end of the wall. Two cavalry armies lost. This is unacceptable! Through the gap left by these armies, a couple of Sumerian mechs arrive, and land on a mountain near Grenoble.
New unit builds: 1 mech, 4 artillery, 5 settlers, 1 worker

I clear away the mechs with artillery bombardment, and send my forces out to track down these bombers. I capture 3 towns, pushing in a generally eastward direction, and raze another 3, but I don't see as many bombers as I was expecting; I kill 7 in all, but my spy says there are another 9 out there somewhere.
It finally dawns on me that trying to trap Sumerian units with some continent-spanning wall of armies is a huge waste of effort. I use a cav army to cut the road leading west through the narrowest choke, so now all the Sumerian units will have to stop 2 tiles out of Edo.

1926ad
Only 3 bombers show up this interturn, so maybe the rest are all off smashing up the Inca. A mech and 4 tanks drive across the Edo firebreak.
New unit builds: 1 mech, 1 artillery, 3 settlers, 1 worker, 24 slaves.

I kill the units Gil has sent out, with artillery support, and also find that he has sent 3 workers to replace the missing road. So I take them too. Whilst claiming another 5 towns in Portugal / India, I come across the first Sumerian armour. That's a bit scary, and is going to mean I must take extra precautions if I want to avoid getting any attacks from his fast units. Pillage more roads!

1928ad
Gil offers peace on even terms, and when pressed will bolster his deal with 600g. Not a very convincing negotiation. 7 Sumerian units cross the firebreak.
New unit builds: 1 mech, 1 artillery, 4 settlers, 9 slaves.

I capture 7 more towns from the Indian province, losing a tank army in the process. These were the last Sumerian outposts west of Edo; Gil is now safely behind the choke point. This would be a neat place to stop if my side of the pangaea has enough tiles for dom, so I do quick tally of unclaimed tiles. I'm nowhere near, needing about 300 tiles east of Edo, as well as all tiles on the west side. The offensive will continue.

1930ad - 1932ad
18 units cross the firebreak.
New unit builds: 4 artillery, 3 settlers, 2 workers, 20 slaves.

I take Edo, and send my own worker gang out to reconnect the Edo road. But apart from that action, I merely spend a couple of turns healing up and preparing for a big push east through Sumeria's Byzantine province. It is still completely without culture, so should be fairly quick to conquer.

1934ad
6 Sumerian armour try to get to Edo, but I have zoned it off with armies, leaving only a long route around the back. I get a couple of Zone-of-Control hits as the armour drives by.
New unit builds: 4 artillery, 1 settler, 2 workers, 20 slaves.

I finish off the armour near Edo, and push forwards, taking the next 3 towns to the south. A cluster of English towns are shielding the approach to Edo from the east, so I don't have to worry too much about attacks from that direction as long as England and Sumeria don't have a ROP.

1936ad
Gil sends 8 armour my way, choosing to try crossing English territory to do it. As expected, without ROP they don't get as far as Edo.
New unit builds: 3 artillery, 1 mech, 2 armour, 1 settler, 4 slaves.

Internet will complete soon, and I want as many towns as possible ready to start earning culture, so I make a major push, taking 8 towns. This leaves me with a longer-than-usual border to try and protect from counterattacking armour. I'm pretty concerned about avoiding attacks, given that my lux slider is now up at 50%, but I can still manage to stay out of reach with careful placement of my armies, and use of road cutting. Note that in this picture, the big stacks of units in my border towns are merely there for resistance supression, not defense:

Spoiler :

1938ad
As expected, Gil sends over his latest armour builds - they all head for Sardica - but none of them manage to reach the town:

Spoiler :

New unit builds: 4 artillery, 1 armour, 1 settler, 20 slaves.

Internet will complete next turn, so this is the time to make a final all-in push against Sumeria. I throw everything I have at the junk towns, even using mechs as attackers for the first time. War wearines no longer matters, if I am going to give Gil peace this turn. By the end of the offensive, I have taken 16 towns, claiming everything north of England, except for the well-cultured Japanese province.
At last it is time for peace, but first I buy Liz into the war with 1280gpt + luxuries. After all, I still don't want any surprises from the UN, and once I'm at peace with Gil, I can't keep bribing Pacha to maintain the war. Gil gives 42gpt + 139g for peace; he was almost ready to give up a single town!

 

[Buttercup]

Ew, Democracy sounds positively Torrid for this scenario. Still, great entertainment!

 

[Buttercup]

1967 (continued) - Take 22 English towns. Temple building programme starts to really boost my land area. Population 68% Land Area 53%

Interturn - Lose 1 town back, the Iroquois declare on the English and take that town.

1968 - Take 2 more towns and clear out any evident ground forces.

Interturn - Lose one town which the Iroquois take.

1969 - Take 6 more towns.

1970 - Take back a flipped town and take 3 more towns.

1971 - Take all remaining English towns, 7 in all including London, English are gone from the game. Population 77%, area 61%. Change all production of Modern Armour into Settlers to fill some the gaps and get me quickly to 66% area next turn.

1972 - Create 25 new towns and get my land area to 68%. Destroy the Inca Galleon and remove them from the game, the lil' cheats then hit 'End Turn'.

Congratulations Shaka you have achieved a Domination Victory. 83% approval rating, 4086 points, Buttercup the Magnificent.

Thanks to all who tested the Sumerian attack strength before my final push, I'm not sure if I would ever have finished this game without you And I also hope I've given you some fun by offering you this wonderfully bizarre map to play on And I still look forward to seeing any adventures therein created

 

[PaperBeetle]

1940ad
Now that I've broken my alliance with Pacha against Gil, those guys immediately talk peace. Pacha also gets peace with England, so only the Anglo-Sumerian war rages on, and that can't end for at least 5 turns (or whatever the minimum period is before negotiation becomes unlocked). I agree to leave Sumerian territory.
Miniaturization completes; I sell it to Gil for Fission plus gpt, start 4 turn research on Recycling, and switch my SETI prebuild in Zimbabwe over to Internet, which immediately completes.

1942ad
My troops are all healed now, so although I obviously have enough towns to breach the dom limit when the labs hit 10 culture, I decide to have a crack at the English. Liz has troops on my land, so I have a try at booting them, but like Gil she backs down, so I just go ahead and dow straight up. Many of her towns are defended by foot soldiers only, so I have no trouble picking up England's 14 junk towns. With plenty of armies left to use, I also take the well-cultured cities Liverpool and Brighton, which leaves me with a nice straight border. As in the previous campaign, I use armies to pillage roads just outside my borders, preventing the English from landing attacks on me.

1944ad
Liz makes no attempt at comeback except for one mech and one tank. My spy reports that she has bombers, but I don't even see those, presumably because they are engaged with pounding the Sumerians.
I advance southeast on the next two ranks of 6 English cities. Again, they are in deep culture, so I have to use many of my fast armies to capture them. As a result, I can't pillage the roads outside the border. But on the other hand, my artillery haven't seen much action, so I use them to shell the roads into oblivion.
Next turn will be my last opportunity to found new towns, so I use most of my treasury to rush settlers.

1946ad
30 settler builds complete.
A big push nets me 8 more English towns, making it to the far side of their core; all that is left is 4 towns on the southeast coastal strip, south from Norwich. Because this leaves me with such a short border with England, it is easy to fortify, though I'm not expecting Liz to try anything clever. I dig in and use all the settlers to grab as much land as possible, mostly around England, as these recently-captured towns will not be getting Internet cultural expansion this interturn.

1948ad
Recycling completes, and I start Nuclear Power.
Cultural expansions happen all over the provinces I took from the Sumerians and Iroquois. Domination is declared, at 80% land area; I am 774 tiles over the dom limit.

 

[Buttercup]

Nicely done!

 

[PaperBeetle]

And I also hope I've given you some fun by offering you this wonderfully bizarre map to play on

Yep, industrial war actually comes as my second favourite part of the game (after min-maxing the ancient age). Especially putting down that last big runaway AI that you just know you should have reined back properly ages ago! I'm not fond of larger map sizes; seems no real gain in depth to go with the extra time it takes to play. But the current GOTM is small map, so I'm going back to the start with Shaka.

 

[Buttercup]

Cool, happy scouting! I have to say, this map does offer a really nice start location and nice easy pickings on rival civs initially, not to mention a truly varied landscape to fathom.

I noticed someone mention how the AI doesn't use Scouts and vmxa also noted how getting the Second City immediately from a Scout made it so much easier for the Human player, but watching the end video I noticed that Portugal did exactly the same thing and they were a very strong power at one stage in my game, probably not in vmxa's though, lol.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Ew, Democracy sounds positively Torrid for this scenario. Still, great entertainment!

On Democracy, although it's true that it was obviously a crazier choice than Republic, in the end it didn't delay me at all. Indeed, I presume that, given the basic route to dom I was using (Quois > Sumeria > Internet expansions) all the normal governments would give roughly the same date. The timeline is just a function of (a) researching to Miniatures, and (b) building the wonder. Obviously build time would be the same under all governnments, and the research time would only vary by a turn or two at most; and possibly no difference: if you were really serious about getting the research done in the absolute fastest time, you'd just run starving scientists across all the provinces.

 

[Buttercup]

The advantage of the Internet wonder is it expands your towns regardless of Resisting Citizens. My Temple building programme was greatly hindered by the fact that I was conquering towns quicker than I could rush Temples in them. Perhaps I should have built one factory just for that

 

[PaperBeetle]

I noticed someone mention how the AI doesn't use Scouts and vmxa also noted how getting the Second City immediately from a Scout made it so much easier for the Human player, but watching the end video I noticed that Portugal did exactly the same thing and they were a very strong power at one stage in my game, probably not in vmxa's though, lol.

I presume vmxa must mean that getting a hut city makes it easier for the human player relative to the other human player who doesn't get a hut city! Certainly I've seen plenty of AI scouts running around, and plenty of AI cities going up early like Oporto here, founded in 3850bc.

 

[CKS]

Just a quick update:
I've been working on the COTM, so this has been sitting on the back burner for a while. However, Sumeria is gone, the Iroquois sneak attacked just before Sumeria died and I'm now working my way through their core, razing as I go as I'm now about 200 tiles below the domination limit. I'm well in the culture lead, but England and Iroquois are at around 73k. I don't know if I'll wipe them both out or just reduce them significantly. I'm looking at a win date around 2030.

I'm nearly finished with the COTM, so I hope to get back to this soon.

 

[Buttercup]

That's quite a close shave, I think you've done really well to try for the most complex win possible

I must admit, I do apologise for keep posting game scenarios while there are better ones on offer from the profs. I want to get round to them myself at some point but looking at the results pages I don't think I can compete with any of them and might make myself look foolish for trying, but they are something I hope to do at some point.