MSGT John Drew
freight train lover
I just brought this back up from the archive because there was a discussion on GWs. Look somewhere in the middle. Mike B. responds:
Hey Mike B., How does the Great Wall Work?
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- Start date
Pygzilla
loser of lost games
what about the doubles combat strength vs barbs? Is that all combat or only defensive when behind walls?
Polaris
Bald Knobber
The Great Wall should really be classified as a "Feeble Wonder." Something to build to while away the time when you don't have something useful to build.
sabo
My Ancestors were Vikings
I used to ALWAYS try and get the great wall in Civ II, it gave me walls in every city and I believe (correct me if I"m wrong) those walls stay no matter how big the city gets.
kring
Asst Cook & Bottle Washer
That was in Civ 2. There are a number of major changes between the two Civs.
In Civ 3, walls are no longer effective at size 7; and you don't get walls in any cities, just double city defenses and double against Barbs in combat.
In Civ 3, walls are no longer effective at size 7; and you don't get walls in any cities, just double city defenses and double against Barbs in combat.
Xarin
Mr. Peanut
It seems odd that what was arguably the most useful wonder in the real world is the most useless within the game. :jump:
Sanaz
Gorilla Joe
Maybe it's my playing style (or maybe I'm ineffective - everyone's making me insecure), but I always at least try to build the Great Wall. It's cheap, and I always have some small remote towns where I build walls and throw in a Pikeman or Musketman. These towns will never be size 6, but do serve various purposes: expanding borders, recently conquered towns, or on luxuries/resources. I don't want to lose them, but having the GW plus walls means I don't need to worry much about them. I also love the double strength vs. Barbarians - it helps promote my units, and when out in the wild they usually have 1-2 less turns to heal when cleaning up camps. If it weren't so cheap, I may think it's not worth it, but it only takes ~10-12 turns to build. I won't build a case for the best Ancient Wonder, but I don't think it's worthless - maybe it's because I never played Civ2, so I had no expectation...
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Sanaz,
I think you will have to do the test yourself, but you can easily prove that there are better uses of your resources instead of the great wall.
Just play a game up to where you are about to get construction so that the great wall would be enabled. Make sure you save the game here so you can come back and the next sequence of moves over in a different strategy direction. Then play forward in the game using your usually style until you get to a point where invention and theology are available.
The really killer wonders are Leo's workshop and then perhaps Sun Tzu's or Sistine depending on your strategy and the civ you play.
Leo's and Sun Tzu's substitute directly for the military 1/2 of the golden age power of the Great wall. The industrious part is left open. China is the only civ where the GW will kick into a GA all on its own. Other civs you have to amtch up with otehr wonders anyway.
If you use the great wall to bootstrap up to one of the bigger wonders, you can usually pop those way ahead of the competition.
If you are playing down on Warlord or below I am not sure any of this really matters.
Once you play the scenario in your style, then step back and think hard about doing things to get off the highly defensive strategy for tiny civs that the great wall provides some lifesupport to sustain. More upgradeable mobile offensive units like horsemen and/or knights and suddenly the GW becomes an ornament.
Perhaps Firaxis should add the great wonder of "The Maginot Line" that would double the defensive value of fortresses and this would provide an industrial age demonstration of the same flaw in strategic thinking.
I think you will have to do the test yourself, but you can easily prove that there are better uses of your resources instead of the great wall.
Just play a game up to where you are about to get construction so that the great wall would be enabled. Make sure you save the game here so you can come back and the next sequence of moves over in a different strategy direction. Then play forward in the game using your usually style until you get to a point where invention and theology are available.
The really killer wonders are Leo's workshop and then perhaps Sun Tzu's or Sistine depending on your strategy and the civ you play.
Leo's and Sun Tzu's substitute directly for the military 1/2 of the golden age power of the Great wall. The industrious part is left open. China is the only civ where the GW will kick into a GA all on its own. Other civs you have to amtch up with otehr wonders anyway.
If you use the great wall to bootstrap up to one of the bigger wonders, you can usually pop those way ahead of the competition.
If you are playing down on Warlord or below I am not sure any of this really matters.
Once you play the scenario in your style, then step back and think hard about doing things to get off the highly defensive strategy for tiny civs that the great wall provides some lifesupport to sustain. More upgradeable mobile offensive units like horsemen and/or knights and suddenly the GW becomes an ornament.
Perhaps Firaxis should add the great wonder of "The Maginot Line" that would double the defensive value of fortresses and this would provide an industrial age demonstration of the same flaw in strategic thinking.
JBearIt
Ard Ri
But, in Civ II, the walls disappeared after the wonder expired (Metallurgy) unless you built them separately.
sabo
My Ancestors were Vikings
Maginot line?? and if it was a true to life wonder it would be even MORE useless than the GW, it didn't do the french much good except allow them to grow Mushrooms
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
It actually worked quite well in those instances where the Germans attempted assaults on the Line.
The polilitics (not wanting to hang the Belgians out to dry) and high cost of construction prevented the French from completing the line all the way to the channel, thus leaving it open for blitzkrieg.
joespaniel
Unescorted Settler
I changed the tech requirement to masonry in my game.
I dont think its unbalancing to do so.
The Great Wall just isnt so great in Civ3.
I dont think its unbalancing to do so.
The Great Wall just isnt so great in Civ3.
amadeus
Apply directly to the forehead
Heck, I just build it if I have a city that isn't doing anything in particular.
Now, what would be a cool thing is if it worked like the real Great Wall - instead of protecting your cities it protected your borders - or perhaps just the borders near the city you built the wonder in. Something like other civs who you hadn't given right of passage to had a 75% chance of not being able to get through your border.
Andy.
shramj
Fähnrich
It would have been cool if you got Walls in all continent cities instead of what it currently does, kind of how you get Hydro plants in all cities from the Hoover Dam. Shramj!
You can changes the effects of the Great Wall in the editor. Like DOCTOR, I also changes the effects to "a wall on every city on the continent" but it also cost 400 instead of 200. Even with this, I don't usually build, but the effects are more usefull for the AI.
