nihil8r
space . . . madness
thanks sir pleb. but if i have a game now, do you think the new beta patch will fix the problems? i have a totally kick ass C3C game going with like 500 points ... w0000!!! 
HOF Question - C3C
- Thread starter GenMarshall
- Start date
Aeson, you might be underestimating the exploitability of the gpt-bug, I'm afraid.
Imagine this scenario: you reduce a civ to OCC and gift it gpt, just to buy it back with gold. Repeat this as often as you can (you won't be able to do this infinitely, because there is a range between what a civ will be willing to pay for a certain sum and what it is willing to accept for the same), you can however blow up your (and the other civs) incomes artificially to the extreme.
Compare these screenshots:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/gpt-exploit(460ad).jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/gpt-exploit(470ad).jpg
within just one turn, I could raise my income by over 200% (and the trading partner wasn't optimal, i.e. had a aggression level bigger than one and was not gracious towards me); If repeated during the next couple of turns, I could literally generate an income of tens of thousands of gold and just rushbuy all the military needed on my way. The other civ would become even richer...but if one selected a weak foe without ressources, all that money would just be waiting to be picked up.
edit: in the screenshot there is still the potential of ~1k gpt to be gained the next turn. I have made another quick test where I could increase my income from 170gpt up to over 5k gpt within 20 turns with my furious OCC-trading partner collecting over 30k in the process. If performed continuously this exploit is equivalent to using some cheat program -IMHO.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2001
- Messages
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Nice example Mazarin. The gpt bug is an all or nothing type problem, and I don't want to disallow submissions due to it. Much like the Palace rank exploit. I would actually be interested in seeing a game which showed just how far this can go, and how much it would affect tech rate or score.
There are differences in every patch. Some of them are extreme (mapsize) and games which benefitted from them need to be removed from the rankings to keep the rankings balanced and accessable to new submissions. The lifespan of this exploit is going to be very short, and so probably will be submissions that take advantage of it if they no longer are comparable to games played in other patches.
On this issue specifically, if you don't feel like putting a couple hundred hours into a guinea-pig game that may or may not be allowed, or will be removed from the lists shortly, just wait a couple weeks (hopefully) for a patch. Games which aren't played specifically to take advantage of this bug should be ok still. You have to really put some effort into it for it to become exploitive IMO. Normal trading practices, and even always maxing out gpt sides of trades, isn't a problem. It's when you get to gpt for gold trades (trades you'd never make without the gpt bug due to the AI's profit sharing) that it becomes a potential problem.
There are differences in every patch. Some of them are extreme (mapsize) and games which benefitted from them need to be removed from the rankings to keep the rankings balanced and accessable to new submissions. The lifespan of this exploit is going to be very short, and so probably will be submissions that take advantage of it if they no longer are comparable to games played in other patches.
On this issue specifically, if you don't feel like putting a couple hundred hours into a guinea-pig game that may or may not be allowed, or will be removed from the lists shortly, just wait a couple weeks (hopefully) for a patch. Games which aren't played specifically to take advantage of this bug should be ok still. You have to really put some effort into it for it to become exploitive IMO. Normal trading practices, and even always maxing out gpt sides of trades, isn't a problem. It's when you get to gpt for gold trades (trades you'd never make without the gpt bug due to the AI's profit sharing) that it becomes a potential problem.
Mazarin,
I still don't get it!
In your example, you are giving out 3241 gold to other civs and collecting back 2509 gold from other civ. Basically, your outcome is more than your income, how is this an exploit? Sorry, but I still couldn't figure this out. Would you please be kind and explain how this exploit work in a simple step by step so that a dummy like me can understand. Thanks!
I still don't get it!
In your example, you are giving out 3241 gold to other civs and collecting back 2509 gold from other civ. Basically, your outcome is more than your income, how is this an exploit? Sorry, but I still couldn't figure this out. Would you please be kind and explain how this exploit work in a simple step by step so that a dummy like me can understand. Thanks!Moonsinger, the income from other civs is doubled due to the gpt-bug (but not shown on the F1 screen), meaning that 2509g will be added to my treasury next turn though I have a balanced income.
Here's a step by step explanation:
(Turn1)
1.Search a weak and easy to kill civ that cannot do much with the tons of gold it will be getting.
2. gift it a lump sum
3. buy his money with gpt, making sure he will have the gpt available to trade.
4.sell him gold (lump sum) for the gpt you just sold him.
5. repeat step 3
You can repeat this during one turn up to the point where you have no more g and gpt. In the example above I stopped delibarately too early.
(turn2)
You'll now receive much more gold than you should, take this gold
to perform steps 3-5 again.
In the example above, I'd use the extra 2.5k gold to generate an additional income of about 700-800gpt, meaning that I'll get ~3.3k gpt on turn3; investing that should give me 900-1k gpt, insuring an income of ~4.3k gpt on turn4...
Here's a step by step explanation:
(Turn1)
1.Search a weak and easy to kill civ that cannot do much with the tons of gold it will be getting.
2. gift it a lump sum
3. buy his money with gpt, making sure he will have the gpt available to trade.
4.sell him gold (lump sum) for the gpt you just sold him.
5. repeat step 3
You can repeat this during one turn up to the point where you have no more g and gpt. In the example above I stopped delibarately too early.
(turn2)
You'll now receive much more gold than you should, take this gold
to perform steps 3-5 again.
In the example above, I'd use the extra 2.5k gold to generate an additional income of about 700-800gpt, meaning that I'll get ~3.3k gpt on turn3; investing that should give me 900-1k gpt, insuring an income of ~4.3k gpt on turn4...
Thanks!
I will dig out my old game to see if I can repeat this.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
Aeson said earlier in this thread "Please play your game entirely in one patch though!"Originally posted by nihil8r
if i have a game now, do you think the new beta patch will fix the problems? i have a totally kick ass C3C game going with like 500 points ... w0000!!!
So, you should not install the beta patch and then continue any HOF game you started before the patch. If you want to finish a HOF game you've already started, don't apply the patch till you are done.
I don't know what Aeson's reason(s) for making this rule are but I can think of a couple of important ones:
1) If a game is played partly in one version and partly in another, how should it be labelled in the HOF, and which other HOF games can it be compared with? It can't really be compared at all, it was played in a unique combination of versions.
2) It seems generally unsafe to continue a CivIII game in a different patch than it was started with. The developers have probably spent little time ensuring backward compatibility and unexpected side-effects (perhaps giving the player a boost, perhaps devasting to the player, or perhaps just rendering the game unplayable) are possible.
Mazarin,
Just one more question: For example, I'm currently have 1000 gold in treasury. Now, if I can find someone who I can trust and loan them 1000 gold and they agree to pay me back 55 gpt, does this mean that I'm actually going to get back 110 gold (55 gpt x2) every turn for the next 20 turns. Will I get 2200 gold (55 gpt x2 x20 turns) back in the end for my 1000 gold investment?
Thank you in advance for your answer!
Just one more question: For example, I'm currently have 1000 gold in treasury. Now, if I can find someone who I can trust and loan them 1000 gold and they agree to pay me back 55 gpt, does this mean that I'm actually going to get back 110 gold (55 gpt x2) every turn for the next 20 turns. Will I get 2200 gold (55 gpt x2 x20 turns) back in the end for my 1000 gold investment?
Thank you in advance for your answer!
Originally posted by Mazarin
Yes, that's exactly what it means
Great!
Thanks! Hopefully, I can use this 2x gpt bug in my current Sid game to help bring some balance into the game. Because of the corruption bug, my empire is currently running at half strenght, this 2x gpt may help made up for that lost income.
