HOF rules clarifications

[superslug]

Before I make my next run for the HOF, I have a few questions I'd like some insight to:

#1: Do you have to win your game in order to qualify? While I can't imagine I'd ever play such a game to the bitter end, I can envision circumstances where someone might have a game where they have enough points to make a list but still lose. I mainly ask that out of technical curiousity.

#2: I know GOTM rules apply to HOF, but I'm not a regular in the GOTM or the related forums, so what I'm wondering specifically is this: is the Great Library exploit banned for HOF?

#3:Knight units upgrade to cavalry rather cheap. One idea of mine to make cavalry units faster, is that upon Gunpowder, to pillage all roads save the closest city around sources of Saltpeter. That way you can make knights in the majority of your cities and then upgrade them in the one city that has Saltpeter. Granted, this would require enormous amounts of micromanagement, but is it an exploit?

There's a very fine line between advantages and exploits, I'm just hoping to map it out more clearly in my head. Thoughts and opinions?

PS The one thing I know for sure is that Aeson's word is final....

 

[Darkness]

#1 I think I remember that there used to be a line on the GOTM page that said you had to submit a winning game to be eligible for the HOF.

#2 I am a regular in the GOTM and I haven't noticed anything about an Great Library exploit being banned. Note: I haven't started this months game yet, so there may be something I missed.

#3 I think I'll leave this one to Aeson...

 

[superslug]

Yeah, I guess it would be a little wacky to let a losing game into the HOF. I mean, there would be a narrow window of oppurtunity anyway, as winning games would eventually knock it off.

Even if #2 is legal, I don't know if I'd ever use, it seems too cheap. But if #3 is legal, I'd use it, since it's just an extension of micromanagement.

You're right though, it should have a green light from Aeson before I do it.

 

[Darkness]

About #2. I can see the human player conquering the GL with knights and getting techs to a point just short of education, but giving it away means your most advanced unit when you try to conquer it again will be cavalry and if the AI has infantry it could be difficult to take the city back...
I don't really see the point to it actually... Sure you can make loads of money by going 100% tax in the expectation to get the GL back later and get on par techwise, but your units will be very inferior to the AI so if you want to conquer someone you'd better bring loads of units. Also leaving the city with the GL leaves a culturally very powerful city, with quite a risk of flipping back the cities you conquered earlier...

 

[Darkness]

About #3 Kinghts and cavalry are only 10 shields apart, productionwise and though the upgrade is indeed quite cheap I don't really see this as worth the effort. I think I'll stick to my good, old-fashioned horseman-cavalry mass upgrade...

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by superslug
#1:[/B] Do you have to win your game in order to qualify? While I can't imagine I'd ever play such a game to the bitter end, I can envision circumstances where someone might have a game where they have enough points to make a list but still lose. I mainly ask that out of technical curiousity.

You must end your game with a "win" to qualify.

#2: I know GOTM rules apply to HOF, but I'm not a regular in the GOTM or the related forums, so what I'm wondering specifically is this: is the Great Library exploit banned for HOF?

It is legal for both GOTM and HOF. However, I didn't use it in my current game. Yes, I did exploit that in my previous HOF game.

#3:Knight units upgrade to cavalry rather cheap. One idea of mine to make cavalry units faster, is that upon Gunpowder, to pillage all roads save the closest city around sources of Saltpeter. That way you can make knights in the majority of your cities and then upgrade them in the one city that has Saltpeter. Granted, this would require enormous amounts of micromanagement, but is it an exploit?

Same answer as above. Yes, it is legal for both GOTM and HOF. However, I didn't use it in my current game. Yes, I did exploit that in my previous HOF game...I mean horseman-cavalry mass upgrade.

 

[superslug]

Thanks for the quick responses...Now I'm ready to take another crack at it.

 

[Aeson]

Well...

#1 I don't think it's important to actually win the game to qualify for the High Score HOF. When the Fastest Finish categories are added those will definitely need to be victories, but for the highest score, it doesn't really change the game much at all to lose at 2050 from a winning position. Most other losses aren't going to score high enough to make the lists anyways.

#2 That's the way the GL works. I personally feel that it doesn't affect scoring or finish date much at all to wait around that long to do any teching. If anything, it hurts the player in the long run. Free techs are nice, but the player can push the tech rate faster without using the exploit, and leverage a tech advantage into more cash than could be gained at 100% tax rate.

#3 Resource disconnect and upgrading are fine.

 

[Tacit_Exit]

Fastest Finish eh?

I recently finished a deity game circa 1400 AD for the 20k culture victory.

Anyone think this would be worth submitting?

 

[superslug]

@Aeson: thanks for the rulings!

@Tacit: If I understand Aeson's posts in other threads correctly, then the Fastest Finish section will likely be dominated by Jaguar rushes on tiny maps, but if your score is high enough now or high enough for that map size then, by all means send it in!

 

[Aeson]

Fastest Finish will be separated by victory condition, difficulty, and mapsize. That's a lot of categories, but with the games in the database it really isn't very hard to generate the tables... Probably just have a front page with games from any difficulty/mapsize for each victory condition to somewhat mimic the feel of the High Score HOF, and then allow the tables to be sorted by different criteria. Because of how many games this will encompass, only the top few saves from each category will be kept for download.

Wait to submit fastest finish games until an announcement is made that we are ready for them. But feel free to play and save those games you feel would be in that category. I'm leaning towards a set number of AI per map size for fastest finish games, as the number can really affect certain victory conditions. If we go that way, the number would be the max allowable (no mod) for the map size ingame.

----------------------

1400AD for a 20k victory is an exceptionally good date. The only game that even comes close that I recall is DaveMcW's 1555AD in one of the GOTM's. Will be very interested to see that game Tacit!

 

[Tacit_Exit]

Originally posted by Aeson
1400AD for a 20k victory is an exceptionally good date. The only game that even comes close that I recall is DaveMcW's 1555AD in one of the GOTM's. Will be very interested to see that game Tacit!

I pulled up the save to check;1450ad is actually the pre-win save.

One thing; I kinda got a little careless with this game and just 'turtled' through the Industrial Age (didn't play to maximize points) and won early Modern.

Will this affect standing in the new 'fastest finish' category?

Or will this section be solely dependant on speed, not points?

 

[Aeson]

Score would just be a tie breaker.

 

[da_greatest]

Originally posted by Darkness
Also leaving the city with the GL leaves a culturally very powerful city, with quite a risk of flipping back the cities you conquered earlier...

If you gift it to a civ that didn't build it, then they wouldn't get culture from it.

I hadn't heard about the fastest finish section before. It sounds like a good idea.

 

[Darkness]

Originally posted by da_greatest


If you gift it to a civ that didn't build it, then they wouldn't get culture from it.

True but you can only give cities away in peace treaty's, and you'll probably not be at war with many civs at the same time...

IMHO the trouble and effort that go into this 'trick' are not worth the benefits...

 

[da_greatest]

AFAIK you can give away cities any time; you just can't trade anything for them. I agree that it isn't worth it though.

 

[Darkness]

You're right. You can give away cities at any time.

I won't be using this trick though, seems a bit too much like an exploit to me...