[Extension] Hokath's Proposals

[Zach Faulkner]

ah **** no, i've been using the automated installer which is on 4.16. untill your message I didn't even know there was a more up to date version. thats probably the issue then haha. ill update and try later. cheers!

 

[JNZS13]

Subterfuge -- Spy Points Redesign

F Yeah, this is gold i never ever had seen this. Much better them vp spy system.

 

[Tekamthi]

F Yeah, this is gold i never ever had seen this. Much better them vp spy system.

same, some things here sound like good changes. auto-gen of spies has long been a gripe of mine with all the civ 5 systems just about.

@hokath i wonder if you've ever considered using the generic envoy units to interact in some way with espionage as well. in civ 2 there was a diplomat and a spy, both on-map units. The former could act as a partial defense against the latter, ie adapting this straight to vp an envoy parked in a city controlled by the envoy player would help reduce effectiveness of rival spy activity in that city. Now, we don't have the AI to support this parking of envoys, but maybe something else could be done, as you've done with great diplomat...

 

[Bysonte]

In that case I wonder if spy points can be used just like faith to buy diplomats/spies.

 

[hokath]

The civ v system kinda abstracts away the movement of spies on the map.
If we had them, and you could see them, it wouldn't be very spy-like. But if they're invisible, do we really need them?
But I never seriously considered an on-map spy since it would scrap the whole system and start from the ground up, I prefer the incremental improvement approach, and I don't have the AI skills to do it anyway.

 

[Tekamthi]

Yeah I didn't mean to suggest looking at the on-map aspect for spies themselves so much as giving envoys some way of interacting with espionage that fits the current AI paradigm. Haven't had any specific thoughts myself beyond the envoy parking for counter spy strength. The spy system feels completely disconnected from the rest of the world much of the time, the more other things can interact and effect it in balanced way, the better imo.

 

[hokath]

Yes it's all about creating lots of little interactions.
E.g. the Inquisition belief suddenly becomes a lot more enticing if you have many spies, I was considering if one of the Reformation Wonders could give 100 Spy Points as well.

 

[Tekamthi]

Do envoys currently have any effect other than expending for influence in CS? Some of my knowledge of VP changes have fallen behind... Not aware of anything though

AI is only trained to send envoy to CS afaik, so any addition to what it does would have to work the same way. Maybe there can be a competing choice, a) envoy generate influence as it does now or b) generates network points with cs's ally and/or gives some one-off minor spy mission.

I hope the community here keeps developing this system whether via modmod or tweaks to mainbranch... The civ 2 system was wild and chaotic and horribly unbalanced but it was FUN -- with all the reworks we've never really captured that latter characteristic. Anyway will give yours a shot here in my next game

 

[hokath]

Couple little civ changes.
First I was watching @Milae's tense Ethiopia game and it reminded me how weird that +25% Faith during Golden Ages on the unique Monument is. Logically, it should be on the UA since there are basically no situations you get a Golden Age and a City (generating more than 4 Faith) doesn't have a Monument! So I've moved that and then added a little Golden Age Point on Tech discovery effect on the Monument -- not that this is much different but maybe there are some cute things you can do delaying techs at the start, or beelining a bit, while your Cities get their Stele up and you accelerate that first Golden Age. Nice virtuous cycle. I'm looking forward to 4UC when Ethiopia will get their Mehal Safari replaced.

Second thing on 4UC. The Hakkapellitatata is changing to unstack its bonus with the Carolean. I don't really like having no Medieval-era Swedish unique, but the proposal space on that session was quite congested so there were several non-competing ideas running up against each other. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-41-sweden.690967/
I'd like to go back and think about this Jarl suggestion.
I'm not too fond of the unique unit class generally, and definitely not spawning alongside a general like this (a Swedish Jarl either is or outranks a general for starters).
The ability to settle cities is something I'd like to explore elsewhere in an upcoming, unnamed, top secret modmod.
So I've gone with a Unique Great General with era scaling Combat Strength. It also has a set of unique promotions that unlock with tech.

Spoiler :

Ethiopia
- +25% Faith during Golden Ages moved from the UB to the UA
- UB generates 10 Golden Age Points when you unlock a Tech, scaling with Era.
This may need to be a different number, I will test it properly next game

Sweden (assumes 4UC)
- Hakkapeliitta moved back to CS gift
- Jarl Unique Great General added
- Looks like a Viking swordsman, changes to a Ski Infantry in Industrial (and gains promotion of the same name)
- Set of unique names
- Can make Citadel and has Leadership aura as usual
- Jarl has 16 CS, increasing to Longsword, Greatsword, Rifleman, etc. CS with era
- Has "Swedish Lion", 10% CS per adjacent friendly unit, unlocks unique promotions on level up instead of shock/drill
Note, I want this to block Shock and Drill, and have this as a melee combat unit class, for other effects. However that table isn't implemented yet so I've done it the old fashioned way with a unique combat class.
- Unique Promotions
- Primogeniture: 40 Food/Culture/GGPoints when taken. +200% GGPoints from combat
- Saga: Ignore Terrain Costs. No penalty attacking from Sea. Can cross Mountain/Ice/Ocean. Requires Drama and Poetry
- Manifesto of War: +1 Radius on Leadership. Heal every turn. Requires Metallurgy.
- High Chancellor: +2 Gold/Tourism/GoldenAgePoint per 8 combat strength when stationed in a City or Fortification. Influence in nearby City-State based on XP gained. Requires Guilds.
The baochuan influence effect is not yet implemented so until then we have +2 instead of +1. Fortifications not yet working but that might be me, stand-by.
- Gott mit Uns: 100% of defeated Unit Combat Strength as Faith. +1% Strength for every 3 HP lost instead of a penalty. Requires Printing Press.
Would prefer Faith from XP gain but not yet implemented.
- Riksforestandare: 20% CS in friendly territory and against unhappy opponents. +2 Sight and Embarked Sight. Requires Chivalry.

 

[Urzamax]

With Subterfuge active, I'm getting 10 times as many as I should. I believe this bit of code in the defines to be the culprit:

UPDATE Defines SET VALUE = 10 WHERE NAME = 'ESPIONAGE_SPY_POINT_UNIT';
UPDATE Policies SET FreeSpy = FreeSpy * 10 WHERE FreeSpy > 0;
UPDATE Buildings SET ExtraSpies = ExtraSpies * 10 WHERE ExtraSpies > 0;
UPDATE Traits SET ExtraSpies = ExtraSpies * 10 WHERE ExtraSpies > 0;'

Also, the lack of Work Boats affects Polynesia's (and the Tlingit's) 4UC UUs, which can no longer be produced due to lacking a prerequisite tech.

 

[hokath]

@Urzamax https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hokaths-tweaks.690601/post-16752498
It's likely because your version of VP isn't new enough.
The code is intentional (obviously...?)

You will have to delete the Misc/Work_Boats.sql file if you want to play a civ with a work boat UU.
My version of 4UC has Polynesia with unique Trireme (I believe this is latest version)

 

[Urzamax]

@Urzamax https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hokaths-tweaks.690601/post-16752498
It's likely because your version of VP isn't new enough.
The code is intentional (obviously...?)

You will have to delete the Misc/Work_Boats.sql file if you want to play a civ with a work boat UU.
My version of 4UC has Polynesia with unique Trireme (I believe this is latest version)

Oh, okay! I'm on 1.17, so that answers that. I'm not great at reading code, so I appear to have made some inaccurate assumptions. My bad!

 

[hokath]

Well it's happened twice so it must be partly my fault.
I've bolded and underlined the warning now, and hopefully people reading this will work it out if they have a similar issue.

Edit: Update, Alpaca was missing from the Corporations compatibility. I would like to formally apologize to the Alpaca lobby.
I've also actioned Milae's complaint about National Treasure: moving the artifact bonus to the finisher (and upped to +3 in line with landmark) and (re)adding 75 gold on GP expend, scaling.
This is particularly warranted here because ive moved hidden sites to Imperialism and I agree Artistry does feel weak compared to Fealty often (and we don't have the +4 Culture in each City, which is serious business)

 

[TheHatOnTop]

These are some enjoyable tweaks to the game, thanks!

One minor nitpick - observatory as a precursor to public schools is strange, I think it should remain a building you only want to build in mountanous regions or for the extra GS slot.

 

[hokath]

Strange as in thematically strange? Building prereqs often more gameplay than historic.
But in your idea, would it require the mountain, then?

 

[Bysonte]

@hokath
I love all of your tweaks.
Will you propose all those changes at the next congress? I will 100% support you.
While I'm excited for 5.0 I will wait to try it until I'm sure this mod works with it, at this point going back to the regular stuff is pretty much impossible. XD

Begone Workboat!

 

[hokath]

There will be little-to-no delay between 5.0 and a compatible version, not to worry.
I will propose these changes but maybe not all at once, there's quite a lot.

Workboats belong at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Tekamthi]

Workboats belong at the bottom of the ocean.

the workboats kinda suck in their current role, i agree

however i note that this thought, if implemented, effectively removes a gameplay item from the ocean -- a game area that is already very flat and lacking in objectives.

I am looking at my naval mod next for an update, and indeed the workboat role is being considered for a rework. imo it needs to be made useful in a unique way such that there are more of them, in order to improve overall naval gameplay

 

[TheHatOnTop]

Strange as in thematically strange? Building prereqs often more gameplay than historic.
But in your idea, would it require the mountain, then?

Yeah I think it could still be an independant building not part of the science building line, as an option for the people who want to power science/has mountains at the cost of hefty maintanence. Just without being locked behind rationalism.

@hokath
I love all of your tweaks.
Will you propose all those changes at the next congress? I will 100% support you.
While I'm excited for 5.0 I will wait to try it until I'm sure this mod works with it, at this point going back to the regular stuff is pretty much impossible. XD

Begone Workboat!

Also agree!

 

[hokath]

@TheHatOnTop I went on a reading binge about astronomy in the Islamic Golden Age, and how astrolabes work. I hope you're happy.
Made the following changes

Spoiler :

Observatory
No longer has a Policy requirement
Requires a University in the City
+1 (from 2) Science and 1 (from 2) Scientist Slot(s)
They unlock at Astronomy in T1 Renaissance, as makes sense!
Public School loses its Scientist slot to keep the number of slots the same. (not like highschoolers are making serious breakthroughs)
+3 Science from Atolls
As many Observatories are located here as opposed to Mountains
+1 Science and GAdmiral Points to Harbor in the City
+25% Sea Route Range
Harbor reduced from 50% Range to 25% Range
Astrolabes etc.
+1 Faith from Buildings that must be purchased with Faith
Religious significance of observatories even into more recent history -- see the pedia text!

I tried to keep a niche building but, like the changes to e.g. the Hotel, several small niches. Hopefully this is a better representation of the very important role astronomy had on our development.
p.s. I really enjoyed this video