Horseman in Civ7 unit evolutionary paths

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First what class should Horseman be? if there'll be distinctions between 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry?
In Civ 2-5 this unit is referred to as 'just' cavalry, evolutionary path is between Chariot and Knight, the path eventually culminated in the 'Modern Armor' (Main Battletank actually)
When the distinctions between 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry came to exists in Civ6. Horseman is classified as 'light' cavalry and it became 'cavalry' (previously what Knights became), and later, helicopters (a pun to US Army 1st Cavalry Division which saw heavy uses of Hueys in Mekhong subcontinent conflicts (the 'nam', an attempt to foil Communist movements which went wrong with American vassals tend to be wicked right wing governments there and elsewhere in the World), but not tanks.
In Civ7 whom were 'horsemen' as portrayed in the entire series actually were? And what should they be in that game?
 
As long as their is a distinction between light and heavy cavalry, the Horseman unit should stay light cavalry. If you want a heavy cavalry counterpart in the Classical Era they should go for the cataphract.
The generic horseman unit should represent all the unarmored, or light armored, forces of that time period such as the Numidian cavalry.
 
First, let's define our terms, because the actual amount of armor and equipment carried by cavalry of any kind has varied enormously over the centuries, as have the definitions and terms applied to the horsemen.

I suggest that a better distinction than 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry would be Strategic and Battle cavalry.

Strategic is the cavalry that has the greatest effect Off The Battlefield - as in, those fast and nimble horsemen who can scout, raid, screen, harass the enemy's economy and workers and protect your own. They are usually not so good at fighting enemy troops in formation on the battlefield, because any heavy weapons (including heavy lances) and armor that would make them better at that would significantly degrade their ability to move far and fast and do the more important stuff. Yes, we can still call them 'Light Cavalry', but it has nothing at all to do directly with the weight of man, horse, and weapons in any Era.

Battle Cavalry, as the name suggests, is the horsemen reserved to fight the enemy troops on the battlefield. Since one of the cavalry's prime weapons is the mass and impact of the horse itself, these folks tend to charge the enemy a lot, and tend to be armed and armored so that they can get even more effect out of the weight and impact of their charge. So, in general, they tend to be heavier than the Strategic Cavalry, and also, in general, slower - both because of the weight carried by the individual horses, but also because the horses tend to be bigger, require more forage and fodder and feed, and therefore cannot just be 'turned loose' to range about the countryside like the Strategic Cavalry can.

The precise amount and type of armor worn by anybody is, in these definitions, not especially important. Yes, men who intended to charge in and fight the enemy face to face tended to wear more and heavier armor, but not always: nobody after the early 19th century wore any armor at all on the battlefield, yet the unarmored cavalry in virtually every army charged enemy troops in great masses - the British Heavy Brigade in the Crimea, Bulow's brigade and then division of cavalry in 1866 and 1870, and numerous regiments and brigades on both sides in the US Civil War.

In the Classical Era (roughly, 800 BCE to 500 CE) we are dealing with the first 'real' Cavalry - large groups of men on horses who intend to actually fight enemy troops in some way. They were learning as they went along, and one of the first things they learned is that it is much easier to use the horses' speed rather than their weight: keep out of the enemy's reach and throw things at him until he is worn down enough that you can finish him off with almost anything. Thus, the earliest riders are all shown using thrown javelins, spears, and bows - there are virtually no contemporary illustrations, and few accounts, of horsemen actually getting close to the enemy by choice.

So, as pointed out already, the few groups of horsemen who did actually 'charge' the enemy with Lethal Intent are all Specialists - dare I say, Unique. The Kataphractoi, a term first applied to Scythian (specifically, the Massagetai at Gaugamela, "armored horses and men from head to foot") Battle Cavalry, then to Sarmatians, both native and in Roman service (Equites Cataphractii Sarmatii) and then to horsemen in Persian and Byzantine armies. The other great Battle Cavalry of the Classical era were the Hetairoi - the Companion Cavalry of the Macedonians, used by both Alexander and his Successors and, although never as effective, copied by the armored Equestrian class cavalry of the Roman Legions.

That means, effectively, we can classify all the cavalry of the Classical Era as Strategic (Light) Cavalry with the only differentiation being the type of weapons they preferred. And those come down to two: composite bows (horse archers) and thrown javelins/light spears. And while numerous civilizations ranging from Persians to Thracians to Gauls, germans, Greeks, Romans, Numidians, etc all raised light cavalry with javelins, only the pastoral societies on the steppes raised horse archers in any numbers. If you wanted horse archers and were not a pastoral group, you hired them from the 'barbarians' - as did Alexander (4000 Scythian Cavalry in his army by the time he got to India), the Imperial Romans and the Byzantines (both of the latter had numerous units of Equites Sagitarii Hunii - hired Huns as horse archers)

But also note, if the distinction between Ranged and Melee is kept so that no unit with a Ranged Factor can attack an enemy unit directly, then the classical Light Cavalry should be Ranged horse archers and Melee Light Cavalry. IF Civ VII does away with that rigid distinction, then the classical Light Cavalry would be cavalry which can either make a ranged or melee attack - but not both, because it took a certain amount of prior planning to keep a javelin as a thrusting weapon to close with the enemy and not throw them all and then ride away before the enemy can catch you, which seems to have been the cavalry's preferred method of 'fighting'!
 
Heavy and light cav distinction should exist only if it actually clearly matters in the combat system, I have utterly failed to see its purpose in civ6 and I think civ7 should go less tactical more strategic anyway, so I am not sure if there is a point in this.

Especially as that distinction only historically mattered between like, idk, 200 BC (cataphracts) and 18th century AD? So you end up introducing this tactical distinction in a strategy game, in which it is absent in the ancient, industrial, modern and information era, and only makes sense in classicsl, mediebal and early modern. So 3 out of 8 eras (I think the game should have 8 eras tops and the more modern tech eras are there the worse endgame and pacing become)
(Also I think the ability to upgrade cavalry to tank units it utterly ridiculous, tanks should be built from scratch just like aiforce and submarines.)

Europa Universalis IV is a strategy game fully devoted to late medieval and early modern era, so light-heavy cav distinction actually mattered a lot IRL during the vast majority of average game session (unlike civ games where it didnt matter IRL for the majority of game eras), and yet it only has "cavalry", and yet very few people complained about it and it has always had much more exciting warfare than civ6 for me - because those are strategy games, not tactical games, and minutiae of army managwment doesnt have to matter at all.
 
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then the classical Light Cavalry would be cavalry which can either make a ranged or melee attack - but not both

Except if it is considered to be several units into one - as it should be with everything pretending to fight another human force, like the former Civ6 "warrior" - not to mention the fact that non-army fighting capabilities are early acquired through hunt which is - I believe - majorly ranged. One tactic to go against ranged weapon and the very long training they first required (slingers, horse archers) is to charge them with men in the cover of woods, or the equivalent in the fields as heavy/battle cavalry which is meant to go in contact and kill the ranged ones. Of course, it is different if the enemy uses the same strategy. Within (or instead ?) types of units, we might want to select a strategy for them in a given turn. If both units use hit & run first + physical charge, it could lead to massacres, and/or be as much random than Civ3 single-rounds-until-defeat.
 
One major problem with any discussion of Civ Game Combat at this point is that we are not necessarily discussing the same things. I described the cavalry phenomena as it would relate to the current Civ VI system, which in fact I loath as completely out of both time and map scale in a Grand Strategy 4X game. I presumed that the OP meant the discussion to focus on the Combat System As It Is and not As We Would Like It To Be, which to me is an entirely different and more wide-ranging topic.

Heavy and light cav distinction should exist only if it actually clearly matters in the combat system, I have utterly failed to see its purpose in civ6 and I think civ7 should go less tactical more strategic anyway, so I am not sure if there is a point in this..

IF the combat system became 'more strategic' then the distinction between Light and Heavy (Strategic and Battle) Cavalry becomes even more important, because it was the Light Cavalry which had the more important strategic function throughout its existence - and if you consider the first horse riders as Light Cavalry, which is accurate, then Light 'Cavalry' existed from about 3500 BCE to 1914 CE, when the combination of long range artillery and machineguns on the ground and in the air showed the absolute folly of bringing any target as large as a horse onto any battlefield. It was the Light cavalry forces that did the raiding and pillaging that wrecked economies and in more than one case forced city-dwellers to give up and move away, while the Heavy Cavalry's effects were almost entirely confined to the battlefield itself.

Especially as that distinction only historically mattered between like, idk, 300 BC (cataphracts) and 1700 AD? So you end up introducing this tactical distinction in a strategy game, in which it is absent in the ancient, industrial, modern and information era, and only makes sense in classicsl, mediebal and early modern. So 3 out of 8 eras (I think the game should have 8 eras tops and the more modern tech eras are there the worse endgame and pacing become).

By this reasoning, the game should not include aircraft, submarines, tanks, modern artillery, rockets, or any infantry armed with anything more modern than a smooth bore musket, because none of those weapon systems were used in more than 3 Eras either.

First, I think the Era system is a game designer's crutch that is more of a detriment than a help to the game. Even aside from that, though, the distinction between the two types of cavalry is not tactical, it is between a tactical force (Heavy Cavalry - which was also far more expensive and resource-demanding to produce and maintain) and a strategic one (Light Cavalry) - and the strategic one had simply enormous influence on the history of those eras in which it did appear, unless we plan a strategic game that leaves out all the inhabitants and societies of central Asia from the Mongols to the Scythians to the Huns to the Magyars.

I thoroughly agree, however, that any distinct combat units/systems in the game have to be evaluated from the standpoint of not whether they make a neat graphic but whether they indeed have any distinct effect on strategic and tactical warfare at the level that we want to depict in the game, which for a Grand Strategy 6000+ year-long 4x game should be at a much different level than the 1UPT tacticaloid level in Civ VI.
 
Heavy and light cav distinction should exist only if it actually clearly matters in the combat system, I have utterly failed to see its purpose in civ6 and I think civ7 should go less tactical more strategic anyway, so I am not sure if there is a point in this.

Especially as that distinction only historically mattered between like, idk, 200 BC (cataphracts) and 18th century AD? So you end up introducing this tactical distinction in a strategy game, in which it is absent in the ancient, industrial, modern and information era, and only makes sense in classicsl, mediebal and early modern. So 3 out of 8 eras (I think the game should have 8 eras tops and the more modern tech eras are there the worse endgame and pacing become)
(Also I think the ability to upgrade cavalry to tank units it utterly ridiculous, tanks should be built from scratch just like aiforce and submarines.)
As like Boris suggested I think if they were to make a distinction light cavalry should be more mobile and should act like a better recon unit after the Ancient Era, instead of giving recon units more upgrades.
Heavy cavalry would be less mobile but otherwise be very strong against most other units.
If combined though I can see something along the lines of: Chariot>Horseman>Knight>Cuirassier>Cavalry>Tank>Helicopter

Also submarines do upgrade from privateers in Civ 6. :)
 
One major problem with any discussion of Civ Game Combat at this point is that we are not necessarily discussing the same things. I described the cavalry phenomena as it would relate to the current Civ VI system, which in fact I loath as completely out of both time and map scale in a Grand Strategy 4X game. I presumed that the OP meant the discussion to focus on the Combat System As It Is and not As We Would Like It To Be, which to me is an entirely different and more wide-ranging topic.
1. Yes. Particularly with Horseman as portrayed in every Civ games has always been a lancer with studded armor/brigandine. And the term 'Lancer' means melee cavalry that charges enemy with spears or lances of any kind and not throwing ones at the enemy. so often being 'attacker' as well as 'raider'.
2. And same thing came to be when discussing cavalry (and even Infantry) evolutions as a whole. Civ6 ignores the convergence of 'light' and 'heavy' cavalry in 17th-19th Century completely (The convergence was pioneered by Gustav Adolfe of Sweden. He has to make a cavalry corps out of limited Swedes resources to match Holy Roman Empire's (and maybe Spanish) Cuirassiers (heavily armored cavalry armed with at least two or three pistols and AP sword). To this end he had to add light cavalry (carbiners and Finnish Hakapellitas, by the 1640s even these lighthorses wore the same cuirass and helmets as pikemen at maximum.) to the mix of his existing cuirassiers and instead of gunslinging, he ordered these mixed cavalry to charge home enemy at full speed, he used these to the great effects, soon the same measures also saw use in English Civil War afterwards particularly by the Parliamentarians--The Famous Ironsides. After 1650 Cavalry tended to be less armored, and even regular 'horses' which served as battlecavalry are usually armoreless as well.
And also the shifty charcters of Dragoons (began as 'mounted musketeers' in 17th Century who rode civilian grade horses (even tillers and sumpters) due to abundance availability, less upkeep (any sideroad grasses and weeds can do, though pricey grains may be fed if applicable or neccessary) and primary usage as mode of transportations rather than fighting platforms, with the actual combat was done on foot, initially they were even equipped as infantry (no riding boots or even if one wears boots these were likely not even have spurs fitted) ) also ignored completely. Dragoons as mounted infantry followed different combat rules when fighting against phalanx infantry (Including Pike and Shotte. or 'Foote'/'Tercio (what should be a proper name of this unit?)) and actual cavalry, before this unit eventually became real cavalry in the next century.



I thoroughly agree, however, that any distinct combat units/systems in the game have to be evaluated from the standpoint of not whether they make a neat graphic but whether they indeed have any distinct effect on strategic and tactical warfare at the level that we want to depict in the game, which for a Grand Strategy 6000+ year-long 4x game should be at a much different level than the 1UPT tacticaloid level in Civ VI.
GR Engines used in the two most recent games are very ill-suited. But discussions with stacking options and rules belong to different threads entirely
 
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