How about CIV stop being RACIST!!!

[pimpmastabola]

Why is it that the the the vast and diverse regions of sub-saharan Africa are characterized entirely by the Zulu. In fact the game only acknowledges one Negro civilization. ONE! (Although I would pose the argument that Hannibal of Carthage was negro, with just cause, the game does not portray him as such, Cleopatra can be called an Arab).
The Zulu!? Come on, they were only a minor factor for less a couple of scores.

If the creators of the game want to label the Celts (who have been called by traditional historians as "uncultured savages") and the Mongols (of which no historian would call and actual civilization) as civilizations then why not some Civilization.

If we can have the Mesopotamian, the Sumerian, and the Hittites, who are culturally and ethnically almost the same civilization then why not some african civilizatons. If the Netherlands a region where region less then half the size of the state of Maine, then why not some African Civilizations. If the barbarian hordes from Scandavaia are a civilization then why not some African Civs.

How about teh Glorious empires, of Ghana, Mali and Songhai where the great Universities of Timbuktu flourished?
How about Hausaland where democracy first began?
How about Ethiopia the oldest continuous nation in the entire world, from Solomon to Haile Selassie to Today?
How about the Shona empire and its archectural and mettulurgic wonders in the Ancient World?

I hate to be the Angry Black Man, but come on.

 

[warpstorm]

Well, the Mali are in the game.

 

[Bluemofia]

I know what you mean, but, they're adding Mali or Songhai (I think) in Civ IV.

And, for your second to last point, do you count China as a continuous nation? Sure, they had many civil wars, and dynasties, but you count Egypt's dynasties as the same country, and if you bring up being conquered by the Manchu or the Mongols, the Ethiopians were conquered briefly in WWII by the Italians.

 

[Napo981]

You're totally right!!!!

Africa should have more civs to represent them.

However, I don't think it's because Civ team is openly racist they didn't include more Africa civs. Maybe it's for commercial reasons, as America, Europe and Asia are probably the target market.

 

[Evie]

It's not racism so much as it's pure commercial appeal. They want - for the most part - to put civilizations people (in the western world, their market) KNOW about in - civilizations peopel can relate to. There will be a few oddball choices everytime, but ultimately, the vast majority of civs will be the civs that are famous.

 

[GeneralX]

Can we have a definition of “racism” please? If I recall my Sociology lectures correctly racism is the belief that one group of people is genetically inferior to another (ie “White men can’t jump”). What we might be discussing is racial prejudice (discrimination on the basis of racial difference not necessarily perceived superiority/inferiority) or ethnocentrism (the belief that one culture/ethnicity is superior to another).

 

[Nobody]

and polynesia

 

[Roi du Culture]

I myself have been to Timbuktu; complete disappointment. And if we want to include every civilization that has at one time ruled a large area, the Mughels, Tolmecs, and Finno-Ugarians would all have to be included. Also, most of the African nations you've mentioned were fleeting; Mali was included because it was Sub-Saharan East Africa's only really advanced civilization, and the Zulu miracle needs to be expected. But I agree with you on the Ethiopia thing. They got essentially useless wasteland and turned it into a peaceful and advanced (if hungry) civilization. Also, in terms of average population per century, the civilization counts are pretty equal. Most people don't realize that about 94% of the Native North American population was killed off not by conquest, but by disease.

 

[Hyronymus]

I hate it when people abuse the term racism for no reason at all. Fact is that Civilization is developed by a crew that is born and raised in the Western society. It's no surprise then that their world view is biased. If the crew would be African, Asian or Arabic I'm certain the end result of Civ would be quite different. So pimpmastabola, don't use words/terms you don't completely comprehend and consider changing your subject topic. Racism is something completely different and far more aggrevating.

 

[Belcarius]

Yes, as it has already been pointed out, Racism is the wrong word. 'Culturally conglomerating' would be more what you are looking for. I agree that maybe there need to be a few more African Civs. Perhaps add the Bantu and Nubians.

 

[dalek master]

Maybe they decided that If anyone wanted Civs like that so badly why not make them in the editor?

Then again im not that good at editing so I'll just say this:

Civ can't include every single country, religion etc.
i think everyone has said that about 5m times by now though

 

[Left_Wing_Liber]

to be honest i kind of agree and disagree

all of us who play are of different heritage and want to control our own nations.

i am jewish and wud love to have the Israelites in the game.

the same applies to black people. black people will want to have a civ based in west africa.

in my opinion the best idea is to do what they did in civ conquests. have like 50 civs to suite everyone.

certainly some regions are far too overrepresented. It is ridicoulous to have the Portugese as well as the Spanish. Havng the Koreans in addition to the Japanese is also silly.

 

[warpstorm]

It is ridicoulous to have the Portugese as well as the Spanish. Havng the Koreans in addition to the Japanese is also silly.

Unless you are Portuguese, Spanish, Korean, or Japanese or understand their relevance to history.

 

[qaz0101]

I think that they should add one or two more african civilizations, mostly for the purpose of filling the continent on a "real-world" map. However it is importaint to note that sub-sarahan africa has been a quiet continent for most of history (except durring and after colonialism) and that tooo many african civs would skew the game.

Although this has been said b4, the Civ team is not being racist!

 

[Left_Wing_Liber]

warp - what i meant was to have both spain and portugal. That little Pennisula does not need two.

as the starter of the thread said africa i represented by 3 civ for an entire continent with two in the far north.

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

I vote Yes to more African civs. Of course I would like to have 100 different civilizations to pick from! I also vote No to the concept that it is racism on the part of the games' designers. Some people look for racism in every article they read or conversation they have. What I can't understand is how anyone could be racist anyway? Do you really know who every one of your ancestors were or where they came from over the last 3,000 years?

 

[warpstorm]

warp - what i meant was to have both spain and portugal. That little Pennisula does not need two.

Except that at one point (1529, to be exact), they "owned" roughly half the world each. (See Treaty of Zaragoza)

 

[mastertyguy]

I think that video games are first a nbig industry, it's goal is to make more moneyt faster, and if everybody in Rwanda would bought for 2000 $ of video games, Rwanda would be in civ4. The same applies for Quebec, Laos, New Zeland, Monaco, Bhutan, and it is why most civ are European. Why do you think USA is in? Because of there great culture? No, because there are 300 000 000 americans, and because there is a high risk that a lot of americans could be interrestd to civ4. This doesn't apply to Quebec, Laos, New Zeland, Monaco and Bhutan. The objective of the civ selection is :
Put big actual countries which will buy civ4
MAybe a few others to represent that we have a little bit of history
If Bush would have won with 99%, he would lead USA for sure.

 

[ByzantineGreek]

By the way, don't call Cleopatra an Arab! She was Greek, she just ruled Egypt. She was Ptolemian.

 

[Iovah]

Well, I've been thinking of starting a thread to see if there would be any interest in a petition to the designers of Civ 4 for the better representation of non-European cultures of the world. I'm thinking of asking for:

- Civ specific unit and city improvements art work. (ie. all the pikemen look like white medieval European pikemen even if your Chinese, Zulu, Arab, or Aztec).

- Moving away from a disproportionate amount of European Civs versus non-European Civs.ie.

European Civs (13)
Rome, Greece, Germany, Russia, America (although it's in America, it's based on European Civ.), France, England, Spain, Scandanavia, Celts, Netherlands, Portugal, Byzantines (Ambiguous, but it's based on Rome, so I classify it as European).
Middle Eastern Civs (8)
Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Ottomans (amb.), Arabia, Carthage, Sumeria, Hittites
Subsaharran Africa (1)
Zulu,
Americas (4)
Aztec, Iroquois, Inca, Maya
Central Asia (1)
Mongols, (you could possibly ass the Persians and Ottomans here as they originated here and moved West)
South Asia (1)
India,
East Asia (3)
China, Japan, Korea,
Austro-Asia, South East Asia (0)!!!!

41% of the world civillizations are represented by Europeans. Some seem a little unnecissary as they aren't world powers ie. Scandanavia, Celts, Netherlands, Portugal. Furthermore, the Middle Eastern Civillizations, the next largest group, all have some great connection to European history either through the bible (Babylon, Sumeria, Egypt), Greco Roman history (Carthage, Persia, Egypt), and Crusaders (Arab). Only the Ottomans and Hittites seem to be there without having some great conflict or involvment with Europe (though that's arguable). What happen to the Phonecians, and Pathians. They seem like liklier candidates than Babylon, Sumeria, and Carthage.

- Moving away from a tech tree based on European development, and opening up the techtree to many possible avenues of development (it seems though that they may have already done this.)

- Easier ability to manipulate game art so as to mod in more civs with a larger variety of units, because the current unit creators are few and concentrate on European based units. We need to expand the base of mod-ers so as to expand the base of non-European based game art.

Does anyone support these suggestions? If so, contact me etiher by responding to this post of emailing me at iovah111@hotmail.com. I want to see if there is enough support to start a petition for it.