How about CIV stop being RACIST!!!

[Nyvin]

What effect did the native american cultures have outside of their regions in n. or s. america (respectively)? What effect did Carthage have outside of the mediterranean? What effect did the celtic peoples have outside of Europe? Korea, outside of the Korean penninsula (and to a smaller extent, China and Japan)? Many, many peoples did not have impact on the entire world, yet they were a culture that was distinct and rich (culturally speaking) enough to be included as a notable civilization of the world.

The Koreans were the first to develop Metal covered ships, they were called 'turtle boats' and were used in small numbers all the way to the 1900's. Also latin america is largely inhabited by native americans to this day, and they continue to play a role in the world. The native american cultures that are shown are the ones that had the largest impact in the western hemisphere, it's not really fair to count the eastern hemisphere as 'the world'

 

[Truronian]

In response to the original post, does anyone see validity in adding South Africa? They have had a rich history in their existance, and Civ is short on modern Civizations. Plus, dscounting crime, South Africa are the only African country that has a standard of living on a par with the west.

 

[Kyriakos]

When you play a world map you truly see how ridiculous it really is. You have egypt, Carthgians and Zulu so I guess everyone in Africa was one of those three ethnic groups. I think Egypt is presented as a mediterrain civ so africa really has two. If Mani says Ethiopia is one of the 4 great powers of his time and all the three other powers are inlcuded then Why not Ethiopia. I also think that Ethiopias achievement surpass that off any other African nation. Yes Egypt did have alot but I don't see any great historians documenting them as a world power. Ancient Ethiopian seafaring ablilites surpass that of most other countries until 1400's. Ethiopia also had the only military strong enoughto fend of Europeans and invade and control foreign territories beside a two or three other african civs.

how old are you?

 

[brennan]

When you play a world map you truly see how ridiculous it really is. You have egypt, Carthgians and Zulu so I guess everyone in Africa was one of those three ethnic groups. I think Egypt is presented as a mediterrain civ so africa really has two. If Mani says Ethiopia is one of the 4 great powers of his time and all the three other powers are inlcuded then Why not Ethiopia. I also think that Ethiopias achievement surpass that off any other African nation. Yes Egypt did have alot but I don't see any great historians documenting them as a world power. Ancient Ethiopian seafaring ablilites surpass that of most other countries until 1400's. Ethiopia also had the only military strong enoughto fend of Europeans and invade and control foreign territories beside a two or three other african civs.

Ghafi, why is it that every post you make mentions what 'ethnicity' people are? Most of us really couldn't care what colour or race anyone is. We almost all agree that there should be far more civs represented than there could ever be in the game (just imagine how much work the graphics for the '65 Civilizations thread would take!) because we take an interest in this stuff!

The great African civs you would like to see included really suffer from one major problem, that very little remains or is known about them, there is a distinct lack of written, verbal or archaeological information about these cultures, in the same way that there is very little known about the oldest American cultures like the Toltecs and Olmecs. How are the developers going to give such civs a meaningful place in the game when no-one knows the names of any of their leaders, what government they had, what customs or religions? Go take up archaeology and find out more about them and i am sure someone would be delighted to mod them for you, and we would all be delighted to play them (and learn about them).

Until then kindly stop bashing everyone elses' cultures as unworthy for dubious reasons. Now you are picking on the Egyptians:

Now correct me if I am wrong but the Egyptians are only slightly predated by the Sumerians of Mesapotamia, they had a succession of dynasties that lasted for several thousand years, there were periods when they controlled most of the ancient world. They left written records of their history and government, had an an impressive pantheon that influenced the Greeks, oh, and they built the world's tallest structure for 4000 years (until Mr Eiffel built his Tower I believe). Historians do not talk about Egypt being a 'world power' because there really wasn't a world full of civilisations around at the time, it was just Egypt and Sumeria. Later on people like the Persians and the Greeks went far further afield but this was only really because they had come to know of other regions where people had developed kingdoms of their own, not because they were more important than the Egyptians.

In my opinion (and I have said this before) the Egyptians deserve a whole sub-set of Civ to themselves because they achieved so much and lasted so long. Oh, and I think that Rameses II should be their leader.

I suggest that you stop calling Civ and this community 'unfair' and 'racist' because you are really only annoying people who largely agree with you. And please do not try to make race an issue on this forum, that is something we can all do without.

 

[Superkrest]

When you play a world map you truly see how ridiculous it really is. You have egypt, Carthgians and Zulu so I guess everyone in Africa was one of those three ethnic groups. I think Egypt is presented as a mediterrain civ so africa really has two. If Mani says Ethiopia is one of the 4 great powers of his time and all the three other powers are inlcuded then Why not Ethiopia. I also think that Ethiopias achievement surpass that off any other African nation. Yes Egypt did have alot but I don't see any great historians documenting them as a world power. Ancient Ethiopian seafaring ablilites surpass that of most other countries until 1400's. Ethiopia also had the only military strong enoughto fend of Europeans and invade and control foreign territories beside a two or three other african civs.

ghafhi...welcome back ..its been a while since i heard from you..and im sorry ..but your wrong about egypt...egypt was more of a cultural and millitary power then ethopia..and ethopia only lasted against the eurppeans with european help..its kinda like saying ..wow the afghans wooped the russians...with american weapons..and trainors...and money... and what tow or three territories are you talking about????? i think you see what im getting at...this is going to turn into the same argument that got the last thread about african civs closed..please dont start this

 

[doronron]

When you play a world map you truly see how ridiculous it really is. You have egypt, Carthgians and Zulu so I guess everyone in Africa was one of those three ethnic groups. I think Egypt is presented as a mediterrain civ so africa really has two. If Mani says Ethiopia is one of the 4 great powers of his time and all the three other powers are inlcuded then Why not Ethiopia. I also think that Ethiopias achievement surpass that off any other African nation. Yes Egypt did have alot but I don't see any great historians documenting them as a world power. Ancient Ethiopian seafaring ablilites surpass that of most other countries until 1400's. Ethiopia also had the only military strong enoughto fend of Europeans and invade and control foreign territories beside a two or three other african civs.

Superkrest is right. You're going to get this thread closed, and this is the same kind of aggressive behavior that got you banned.

Many people have requested this before, but it's several posts back, so...

Cite your sources that show Ethiopia as the great nation you claim it to be. For this specific argument, show those sources that prove Ethiopia to be more powerful than Egypt. In case you do not understand the question, provide book titles, their authors, the pages. Since this is an electronic discussion, electronics sources are also acceptable. In fact, web pages are preferred as they are easier to access and confirm independantly for the purposes of this discussion.

You have yet to provide any support for the claims you have made, both before your hiatus and now.

You also claim to have an education from a prestigious university. You should be able to make your points WITHOUT bashing other peoples' cultures or stealing their heritage.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Doronron, I do not think Ghafhi is being aggressive (although I do not know the details of the controversy that caused him/her being banned). S/he is just historically uneducated (or mis-educated as it appears to be the case).

And I could not agree more with Varwnos. How old is this guy?

 

[doronron]

Doronron, I do not think Ghafhi is being aggressive (although I do not know the details of the controversy that caused him/her being banned). S/he is just historically uneducated (or mis-educated as it appears to be the case).

And I could not agree more with Varwnos. How old is this guy?

I'd suggest you take a look at Ghafhi's earlier posts to gauge how aggressive he is, but a large number of them were deleted. While Ghafhi's posts lack a bit of maturity, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's old enough to know a thing or two, no matter how misguided his current views are.

 

[Carver]

..and ethopia only lasted against the eurppeans with european help..its kinda like saying ..wow the afghans wooped the russians...with american weapons..and trainors...and money...

You don't mention how the US defeated the Nazis only with the help of Canada, or how the US defeated the Taliban only with the help of Australia.

Why don't you cite your sources arguing that Ethiopia only persisted due to help from Europe? There were no Europeans helping them when Italy invaded in the 1890s or when Egypt invaded in the 1870s? It wasn't Europeans that helped Ethiopia halt European colonialism at its borders - in fact Ethiopia expanded its borders during the "scramble for Africa."

Your argument is pointless. All nations use diplomacy, economics, and militaries to achieve their goals. In fact, the ability to convince another state to give you assistance is a type of strength - even though European help is not the reason Ethiopia has endured. The British helped expel the Italians in the 1940s but again, the Italians hadn't conquered the entire country anyways.

 

[doronron]

Why don't you cite your sources arguing that Ethiopia only persisted due to help from Europe? There were no Europeans helping them when Italy invaded in the 1890s or when Egypt invaded in the 1870s? It wasn't Europeans that helped Ethiopia halt European colonialism at its borders - in fact Ethiopia expanded its borders during the "scramble for Africa.

Without Portugese support in the 1500s, Ethiopia would have been conquered by Muslim Somalia.

http://www.africanet.com/africanet/country/ethiopia/history.htm

http://www.imperialethiopia.org/history2.htm

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/ethiopia_history.asp

Without Portugal's help, Ethiopia's vaunted imperial dynasty would have collapsed, and the region would have likely been colonized as the British rose to power and subjugated the bulk of the muslim nations surrounding the Arabian peninsula.

 

[Carver]

Without Portugese support in the 1500s, Ethiopia would have been conquered by Muslim Somalia.

http://www.africanet.com/africanet/country/ethiopia/history.htm

http://www.imperialethiopia.org/history2.htm

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/ethiopia_history.asp

Without Portugal's help, Ethiopia's vaunted imperial dynasty would have collapsed, and the region would have likely been colonized as the British rose to power and subjugated the bulk of the muslim nations surrounding the Arabian peninsula.

Again, you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

The Portugues had some initial success, but were quickly defeated by the muslims. The muslims (the Somali and the Oromo) are Ethiopians! The Amhara and the Tigrai of northern Ethiopia sometimes view themselves as the traditional core of Ethiopia, but this was an internal dispute between black Africans - whose descendants are now all Ethiopians.

Do yourself a favour and just admit that you know next to nothing of Ethiopia (or probably the rest of sub-sahran Africa). Insulting people you know nothing about is really low class.

 

[doronron]

Do yourself a favour and just admit that you know next to nothing of Ethiopia (or probably the rest of sub-sahran Africa). Insulting people you know nothing about is really low class.

This coming from an individual who attacks anyone who's even remotely proud of their heritage outside of Africa.

You do realize that you, along with Ghafhi, are the problem here? If your responses (such as the two above) weren't laced with personal attacks against the posters, much of this would never have exploded into the rather nasty mess we have on the forum.

Are you proud of having turned an otherwise nice little corner of the internet into a joke and an embarassment for the visitors who come to this site?

 

[Superkrest]

You don't mention how the US defeated the Nazis only with the help of Canada, or how the US defeated the Taliban only with the help of Australia.

Why don't you cite your sources arguing that Ethiopia only persisted due to help from Europe? There were no Europeans helping them when Italy invaded in the 1890s or when Egypt invaded in the 1870s? It wasn't Europeans that helped Ethiopia halt European colonialism at its borders - in fact Ethiopia expanded its borders during the "scramble for Africa."

Your argument is pointless. All nations use diplomacy, economics, and militaries to achieve their goals. In fact, the ability to convince another state to give you assistance is a type of strength - even though European help is not the reason Ethiopia has endured. The British helped expel the Italians in the 1940s but again, the Italians hadn't conquered the entire country anyways.

first off...the us and canada and brittain all used there own manufactoring and weapons ...where do you suppose that eithiopia got its weapons to reapel the invaders.? i my self as an avid weapons collector have never once seen an eithopian made riffle. not to say the ethiopians do not derserve a seat in the game...i have always supported them in that sense..nor do i deny they had one of,if not the richest sub saharan african cultures...but also i do not over glorify there history. something to many people here do. comparing ethiopia with america by the way is a little less over zealous

 

[Carver]

This coming from an individual who attacks anyone who's even remotely proud of their heritage outside of Africa.

I have never done this. If you stick by your claim, please show me where I attacked someone for being proud of their heritage.

You do realize that you, along with Ghafhi, are the problem here? If your responses (such as the two above) weren't laced with personal attacks against the posters, much of this would never have exploded into the rather nasty mess we have on the forum.

I have attacked individuals' words but I don't think I have gotten personal.

Are you proud of having turned an otherwise nice little corner of the internet into a joke and an embarassment for the visitors who come to this site?

I haven't turned this corner of the internet into anything. A couple times, when there were 1 or 2 days of no posting in this thread, I was hoping it would die. But someone kept coming back and eventually a negative comment (which didn't square with reality) would be made, so I responded.

As I said x pages ago, Ethiopia is not a 'must have' in the game. The only reason I began posting here was to counter some of the misinformation.

 

[FieldMarshall]

I decided to back out after Ghafhi posted, and yet 10 posts later, I can't help but rejoin this discussion. This is getting ridicilous.

When you play a world map you truly see how ridiculous it really is. You have egypt, Carthgians and Zulu so I guess everyone in Africa was one of those three ethnic groups. I think Egypt is presented as a mediterrain civ so africa really has two. If Mani says Ethiopia is one of the 4 great powers of his time and all the three other powers are inlcuded then Why not Ethiopia. I also think that Ethiopias achievement surpass that off any other African nation. Yes Egypt did have alot but I don't see any great historians documenting them as a world power. Ancient Ethiopian seafaring ablilites surpass that of most other countries until 1400's. Ethiopia also had the only military strong enoughto fend of Europeans and invade and control foreign territories beside a two or three other african civs.

Italy, 1936. Ring a bell?
In my study of history, I have never once read about Ethiopia defeating a European Army. And may I also point out, Ethiopia was Christian, not Muslim. It's even written in Civ (TetUrkHan Secanarion, Play the World expansion pack)! Granted, Ethiopia is what i would consider an African power, and I would actually like to see them included in Civ IV, but most of what you are saying is (aside from getting insulting), frankly, false. Please, give us some of your sources.

 

[I am the Future]

I would have to say that the reason that the reason taht more african countries are no t represented in teh game is because inh the real world these countries were taken over by europeans. (IE Portugal and England)

This is alsop the reason that all of south america is represeted by one civ. and that is after the expansion. Befor it there was one civ for two continents. How many brazilians complain about being misrepresented.

Dont bother complaining about civs in the end of the day it is just a name and a unit. And you can change both of those.

Also if you are complaining about Firaxis being racist watch your terminology in the poll "Indians" live in india not the americas.

 

[brennan]

You don't mention how the US defeated the Nazis only with the help of Canada, or how the US defeated the Taliban only with the help of Australia.

*Cough* Ahem, getting revisionist are we?

And I think that you'll find the following to be examples of what Doronron found rather personal attacks...

Again, you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Do yourself a favour and just admit that you know next to nothing of Ethiopia (or probably the rest of sub-sahran Africa). Insulting people you know nothing about is really low class.

Perhaps you should be a little more diplomatic in future, telling people they have 'no idea what they are talking about' will hardly stand up as an argument.

 

[LoopyLewis]

Ok, I'm not certain if this has been mentioned before (sorry, but it's a long topic, though I did read the first page and the last ) but has it occured to anyone that the civ traits might have something to do with the picking of the civilisations in civ?

Germany, in large periods of history, has been militaristic and scientific (so therefore has those traits in Civ III) Similarly, the Japanese civilisation has the traits Military and Religious, which does suit their history. And, although some do overlap, most civs are different when it comes to traits.

Arguements about other civs being put into the game, such as the Ethiopians and so on, are slightly flawed if you look at it from a trait point of view. Diving into a history book (well, websites, since my knowledge of Eithiopian history is a bit limited including this one http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/ethiopia2.html and http://sellassie.ourfamily.com/history/basics.html ) I have come to the conclusion that Eithiopia was definitely Religious... and... probably expansionist but not really. Maybe someone can help me here, but I can't think what other traits you could give it. And it would be pointless if you gave the civ a trait like Militaristic (because Exp + Mil = Mongols) or agricultural (because Exp + Agr = Inca and since historically that's incorrect)

So really, bringing in a civ that was definitely religious but not really anything else isn't so good for gameplay (because remember, this is only a game) and besides, I haven't a clue what you could use for a unique unit so maybe someone else could fill me in.

Thus, after all that, I conclude that Eithiopia wouldn't be a good civ to use in Civ III. But maybe an Expansive/Spiritural trait might work in civ IV (so long as no other civ has those traits), though the problem of the unique unit would still be present.

And that's the end of my little contribution

 

[FieldMarshall]

That's a very interesting way to look at it. And, more importantly, thanks for posting your sources!

I definatly agree that Ethiopia is Religious, without a doubt. But, I wouldn't say that they are an expansionist civ. Granted, my history is a litte hazy when it comes to this part of Ethiopia's history, but more or less I'd view them as a commerical civ, simply because I think they had a realitvly god economy before Italy invaded in 1936.

 

[Carver]

*Cough* Ahem, getting revisionist are we?

Hello... I was being sarcastic in response to donoron's post. Did you even read it?

And I think that you'll find the following to be examples of what Doronron found rather personal attacks...

Perhaps you should be a little more diplomatic in future, telling people they have 'no idea what they are talking about' will hardly stand up as an argument.

Telling people they are misinformed is hardly personal. There are plenty of personal attacks in forums like this - if you think about it I'm sure you can tell the difference. But I know your real reason for attempting to critize me is that you don't like my substantive argument. But rather than attempt to argue on substance you attempt to chime in as a third party with your own personal attacks. You will note that where I have chimed in was in response to substance, not petty personality conflicts like you have chosen to do.

Further, "telling people they have 'no idea what they are talking about' " was not my argument - again, I don't think you even read it - or as you read it you got so angry you stopped thinking. As one of donoron's own sources states, the Portugues were defeated. Thus their presence in Ethiopia was incosequetial to the 16th century war with the Muslims - who are now Ethiopians.

Thanks.