How do I help a civ fight off sieges when they don't give open borders?

[moredrowsy]

So, you know the usual stories. War hungry germany, crazy nomadic mongols, douchebag france all want to gopple others up. Here I am, wanting to help my neighboring civs from being conquered but then I can't defend their cities if they don't allow me to cross borders.

Yeah. I find it really hard to help a friendly civ defend off sieges. I don't want to pay for open borders to help him defend. I mean, I AM HELPING HIM SURVIVE. WHY DO I HAVE TO PAY HIM 50g TO HELP HIM SURVIVE. PLUS, I AM WASTING MILITARY UNITS/MAINTENANCE to fend off enemies.

Does anyone else find this illogical? I am missing something or is there like a "We're both at war with the mongols, and we're allies. Let me enter your borders to help you defend" button?

Edit: Just in case someone reads this wrong. I'm talking about actual civs, not city states.

 

[Camikaze]

Giving away open borders would seem to me to be abusable, given you'd get all the benefit without any sort of obligation to actually help.

 

[moredrowsy]

Even if the civ is down to his last city (and capital)? I think giving free borders to another civ with a common enemy is a good idea, especially if your capital is down to half hp and he has no more military units on the field.

It's like:

*Cell phone rings*
Yeah sup neighbor. I'm being robbed. Probably about to get stabbed in the heart in the process. Wait. He robbed you before too? You want to help? Sure. But first, give me 50 bucks or else you can't enter my house to save my life. trollolol
Yo dude, you're dying. You're in no situation to ask that.
Yea sup bro, I still want me 50 bucks.
You serious?
Yep. I want me 50 bucks. Pay me 50 bucks to save my life.

Yea. I think at that situation when a civ is in dire situation (down to a few cities left with no hope of producing/buying military units fast enough should have an option to plea for help.
Actually, I just realized. WHY DON'T WEAK CIVS being attacked PLEA FOR MILITARY HELP?! There should be an option for that. Like, if I was being attacked, and needed help, I wouldn't mind pleading for help.

 

[Agent327]

Edit: Just in case someone reads this wrong. I'm talking about actual civs, not city states.

But just like with actual city states you can always gift them your excess units - no charge!

 

[Brigg]

But just like with actual city states you can always gift them your excess units - no charge!

It is always fun to gift an advanced unit to help a civ, watch it appear in the water next to the city and then promply watch it get run over by a trireme.

 

[SkylineR33FTW]

Why do you not just do straight up Open border for Open borders swap ? :L not like the Civ will invade you with hardly any units :L

 

[PhilBowles]

It's annoying when you try to kill barbarians and get the warning "This will mean WAR" with (whoever's territory the barbarians are in) on much the same basis.

This has always happened in Civ games, because the AI doesn't understand context. Open Borders is not a defensive treaty option, so the AI will calculate whether to give you open borders on the same basis it would if it wasn't at war with anyone. In fact I think having your units close by actively counts against the likelihood of agreeing to open borders, so the AI may be less likely to grant open borders exactly when it would benefit most from granting them.

 

[moredrowsy]

@SkylineR33FTW
I actually have tried equal open border swaps. Some reason, the AI think he's in a better position and says "That is not acceptable." I clicked on What would make this deal work. He asks for money and resources. Really? Even at that situation.
lmao...

@Brigg
Oh, how do you gift units to Civs? I didn't know you can do that. But then why would i want to give gold (in equivalent to units) to a civ to save them. The civ most of the time just put their spearman in open ground and let them die. Or, in a worst situation, they get baited to attack a horseman in a forest and then die by archers the next turn. Not very useful to gift them it. I rather control how the battle goes.

 

[Maktaka]

Oh, how do you gift units to Civs? I didn't know you can do that. But then why would i want to give gold (in equivalent to units) to a civ to save them. The civ most of the time just put their spearman in open ground and let them die. Or, in a worst situation, they get baited to attack a horseman in a forest and then die by archers the next turn. Not very useful to gift them it. I rather control how the battle goes.

You need open borders first naturally (heh). Then just move the unit you want to gift into the civ's borders and you'll get a new button added to gift the unit.

For City States you can also bring up the CS's diplomacy screen, then choose the "gift unit" option. Click on the unit you want to gift and it will disappear, reappearing three turns later next to the CS.


Really though, if a civ is resisting your attempts to save it, then that means its time to stop trying to do so. Declare war and get with the conquering. If the civ is too weak militarily to survive without your help, too far gone to make a good trade partner, and not on good enough terms with you to be a willing ally, they're not worth saving.

 

[Soronery]

You can either pay him 50g or trade him your open borders for his open borders. I don't see the problem.

 

[moredrowsy]

What really. I see a problem. I have to pay him gold to save his arse? What logic is that. haha

 

[Soronery]

If it were not beneficial for yourself to save him you would not do it.
Open borders is worth 50g if you are friends. You want them to give you 50g for free.
It makes far more sense to give him your open borders for his open borders and have an even trade.

 

[astrallite]

50g is all?

Arabia is being ganged up on by 4 countries, is down to its capital, and when I offer open borders (so I can blockade the enemy) or defensive pact it asks for everything I own

The AI would rather die than accept help from you. Even if they are friendly with you and beg you for resources every turn

 

[sparkyal]

In may cases the benefit is worth way more than the 50 gold. Just pay it. I agree it is odd, but you want to get the benefit too

 

[Louis XXIV]

In his defense, he's not programmed to know your intentions. You could be scouting out his territory to later conquer his city. He's not a human who can think intuitively. That being said, they generally do agree to equal swaps. Any way you can sweeten the deal without hurting yourself such as offering a bonus luxury when you have two of them? That'll also help them by giving them more happiness, which they might need in this situation.

 

[SkylineR33FTW]

@SkylineR33FTW
I actually have tried equal open border swaps. Some reason, the AI think he's in a better position and says "That is not acceptable." I clicked on What would make this deal work. He asks for money and resources. Really? Even at that situation.
lmao...

Oh right ahha, i remember in my most recent game i defended the US from a Greek attack by having open borders with them

In all fairness 50g isnt really that much to pay for them, and anyways, if they have cities takes you can always DoW the aggressor and liberate the cities back

 

[Ranos]

If it were not beneficial for yourself to save him you would not do it.
Open borders is worth 50g if you are friends. You want them to give you 50g for free.
It makes far more sense to give him your open borders for his open borders and have an even trade.

You can't always trade open borders for open borders.

If a civ is friendly toward you, then you can do this. If they are neutral with you they ask for some gold (52 in my epic large map games). If they are guarded they will ask for 112 gold and sometimes also strategic or luxury resources.

So it doesn't always just work. And he doesn't want to waste his gold or resources on the AI that way.

@ moredrowsy

The AI is not an actualy intelligent. It can only base its decisions off of its programming and isn't capable of creative or intuitive thinking. So it can't understand that you are just trying to help it.

At the same time, if they are demanding gold and/or resources from you, it means they have a reason not to trust you. Either you've done a lot of warmongering or you've broken agreements with other civs and you just aren't trustworthy as far as the AI is concerned.

If you really want to defend them, either pay them what they want or just attack the enemy civ's units outside of the defending AI's territory.

 

[Johan de Witt]

@SkylineR33FTW
I actually have tried equal open border swaps. Some reason, the AI think he's in a better position and says "That is not acceptable." I clicked on What would make this deal work. He asks for money and resources. Really? Even at that situation.
lmao...

That means he doesn't like you. You're probably way stronger than him (advanced or with more units) or you have killed some other civilizations.

Remember that killing the last city a civilization owns yields a hefty diplomatic penalty. Since City States have only one city, killing one is almost the same as killing a full AI civ.

 

[gozpel]

Yep, buy the open borders at all costs, defend him with your units and go on a crusade against the intruder, liberate one or two cities for your new friend and it will end up with....We think you are a warmongering menace of the world.

Perfect balance!

 

[Shurdus]

What you can do is waiting for a city to fall, and then liberate that city. You need to be at war with the offender of course, but that can be arranged just fine.