How do I pull myself together after two triple DOWs?

libfud

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
18
So, I'm playing on immortal, as Korea, on a Pangea map, epic pace, turn 443 (1853), researching Satellites and building the Manhattan Project while I have the Apollo Program a little on the back burner. I just got done with two economically and scientifically devastating wars of big scale. I've only played one game on Emperor before this, and all my prior games have mostly been Prince with a few Kings, but those were getting really boring. This is is on such a different level, it's really exciting, but I feel like I'm on the ropes right now. I'm middle of the pack in all the demographics except for literacy, number one at 73% compared to the average of 66% for the AI.

Right now I've only got 768 beakers, 85 culture per turn, and 19 faith per turn, with 3 happiness. I have 190 gold and I'm making 26 gpt. My capital is at 23 pop, growth is a bit crap at the moment. My second (and only other city which I actually founded) is at pop 17, groth is also kind of subpar. I'm feeding my capital with two of my trade routes. As for my military, I've got some infantry units that are kind of meh in terms of promotions, although I've got a couple with cover 2 and medic. My air force is non existent, and my navy consists of one ironclad that I upgraded from my last turtle ship. However, my artillery is pretty good, some H'whachas that have upgraded to artillery throughout the ages, and I've just gotten to +1 range on one of them, might be close to logistics with that one soon.

As far as the other cities I control, I've got Memphis (pop 11, but has a nice manufactury courtesy of Egypt), which was my first conquest, and probably the only sound decision i made in this game. I also took Thebes after I saw that it would soon fall to the Celt's and English siege, so I decided to take it for myself... it was Egypt's last city, so guess what happened two turns later? Double dow from Kamehameha and Theodora, who both backstabbed me, folllowed very shortly by my nearest neighbor to the North, Cathy (who also backstabbed me, but honestly I expected it so I always kept my units stationed close to her border, especially after our first war circa turn 100, which may have been my worst mistake of the game by not conquering her outright then and there). I really wish that Montezuma could have made it longer, because he could have been a good impediment to Russia.

Anyway, I had adopted Freedom (Russia took Order, of course), because I mistimed entering the modern era - Elizabeth went Autocracy and crushed my happiness, so I had to rush the Statue of Liberty and barely managed to get Volunteer Army in the knick of time before flipping to Autocracy myself (preventatively), which secured England as my greatest ally of this game. God knows if she decided she didn't like me she'd wipe me out, but I managed to get her to DOW Russia which really helped me. I don't think they've signed peace since they started fighting, although she didn't take any of Russia's cities bar one city state that Russia puppetted earlier in the game. I got triple DOWed again soon after the peace treaties from the first war expired (but not before Cathy used her Brandenburg general to steal Ivory and wheat from me, which I responded to in kind by burning one of my great generals on a second citadel to reclaim). The second war was much more fierce and really destroyed me economically. However, I managed to use my Artillery (which I upgraded from my Hwachas with loans floated by England in exchange for aluminum and one of my single copy luxes) to repel the invaders, and used my turtle ship -> ironclad to repel the Polynesian and Byzantine fleets . I then turned the tide of the war after I saw she had a great war bomber, and captured moscow, losing some of my volunteer army (RIP, my lifesaving godsend from Freedom). It flipped back to her once, and then back to me. She capitulated when I advanced on another one of her cities with my artillery, and gave me St. Petersburg (which amazingly popped a great eng a few turns after). I soon got peace from Polynesia after I retook Thebes, which had been lost early during that second war, and then after I started slaughtering Byzantium's troops in earnest I got white peace from her as well.

So now I'm in a precarious situation - my spy shows that Catherine is building a battle ship in her new capital, she stole radio and is using two spies against me (if not more?) to steal techs, and Theodora is actually really strong - her capital has 32 citizens and 119 combat stregth!


So, what do I do? I'm researching Satellites, and building the Manhattan project (Thebes was on top of 4 uranium), I don't have any oil because I haven't researched Biology yet! I'm rebuilding my cargo ships, which I'm sure I'll probably promptly lose again but I need any source of income right now. I only have two tenets in Autocracy, and I don't think I could take England before I'd get obliterated by everyone. I think if I took all but one of Theodora's cities, and did the same to Catherine and Kamehameha, England would probably decided to wipe me off the map (although at that point I might be able to take her, but I kind of doubt it). Plus the happiness penalties would annihilate me. I feel like my chances of winning this are kind of slim, but I don't want to give up. Any advice?

Here's a link to an image that gives a rough outlay of what's going on in my game:
https://i.imgur.com/Mu39BiX.jpg
 
It might be better to link your Game Save because your lengthy explanation post unfortunately reads to me like the mathematics word problems I disliked in college :(
 
I can't tell you how to salvage this game, but it looks like your main problem was a weak military score.
 
What victory are you going for? Science? If you are that far ahead you can probably focus on your military to get the military score up. It looks like Cathy isn't doing so hot military wise. Could raze Rostov and the city under the truffles....liberate Hanoi that'll leave her one city and pretty much toast. Hanoi allied can handle her after that. Your cities appear to be in pretty decent defensive positions to hold intruders back to get peace treaties. Have you tried to bribe others to declare on those the declared on you? It sure sounds like they are trade DOWing you but you should have the tech advantage to keep them at bay. Get yourself air superiority and it won't matter you can handle them before they ever get to your cities.

How is your military tactics? This may be the problem as your situation doesn't look that dire. The enemies aren't close enough to constantly supply units once the main wave is handled they won't have much for you. If you can get some bribes out they will be more willing to offer peace
 
It sure sounds like they are trade DOWing you but you should have the tech advantage to keep them at bay.
I'm not certain the AI can bribe a DoW.

I'm equally uncertain how it would organize a triple DoW. A double DoW, sure; that's just an AI accepting the joint DoW request. But a triple DoW?
 
I'm not certain the AI can bribe a DoW.

I'm equally uncertain how it would organize a triple DoW. A double DoW, sure; that's just an AI accepting the joint DoW request. But a triple DoW?

The AI can and will purchase DoW's on you, and it is typically the source of multiple DoW's on the same turn prior to Defensive Pacts.
 
The AI can and will purchase DoW's on you,
I've only ever seen it request a joint DoW, never bribe.

prior to Defensive Pacts.
I was under the impression a pact is only triggered when a pact member is declared against, and is invalidated as soon as a pact member declares against another civ.
 
How is your military tactics? This may be the problem as your situation doesn't look that dire. The enemies aren't close enough to constantly supply units once the main wave is handled they won't have much for you.

I agree. OP, I think you are in fine shape! So long as you are not losing core cities war is good for the entertainment and unit xp if nothing else. It looks to me like you have your pick of VC. What is the problem exactly? Are you not at peace for the moment? The AIs felt obligated to DOW because you killed Egypt -- and they have now gotten that out of their system. If you do not denounce them, you can probably peacefully turtle to SV. But you also look to be in very good shape to pick a tech of choice and then roll the map. Nice game!

I've only ever seen it request a joint DoW, never bribe.

Certainly the AI has never offered me a bribe! I am not clear if they bribe each other.

The AI can and will purchase DoW's on you, and it is typically the source of multiple DoW's on the same turn prior to Defensive Pacts.

How would you go about proving such a statement?

My understanding is that there are certain logs / debugging utilities that one can use. I don't have first hand experience with that though.

Regardless if they are bribing each other, the AIs clearly collude to coordinate DOWs on the player (and other AIs). That conclusion follows just from in-game behavior and the timing of DOWs. This is especially evident with GoTMs and having multiple people playing the same maps and comparing experiences.
 
How would you go about proving such a statement?

I think he`s right though. Some of those DOWs could only be logically gained by cash payment.
 
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