How do they solve "big becomes bigger" without corruption?

Dearmad said:
This is brilliant. If this idea were fleshed out, it, as a founding principle to a game, could totally change the CIV genre of games.

I can't believe no one picked up on this idea as the best idea mentioned in this thread. People too busy arguing to see how freaking perfect this idea is, and how it could change the way the game is designed next time?

This is exactly what i proposed above. Though, there is also another way to limit such a phenomen. As civilizations extent, it would be simply good to see AI civilization to do the same, in the application of a countries formation simulation. As AI civilizations would have extend, it would not be more easy to fight them, as the number of their troops would be the "same" of ours, so the "big becomes bigger" thing would not be (necessarily) true. By extension, a good way to obtain this would be to increase the number of civilizations and the playing space to allow the repetition of such conquests and countries formations.
But sure, if you want a "small can become bigger/is powerfull" system, you would have to combine this system with the one you mentioned.
But there is an interesting question here: what is really the problem of "big becomes bigger"? Is it that it encourages/imposes the use of war? Then you have to ask yourself at what point bigger is more powerfull, considering Civ3 high corruption... Apparently, you are not held to make war to profit of your circle of corruption-wise valid cities in Civ3. But sure, more cities will allow you to support more units (another way to delete the "big becomes bigger" thing: just delete bonus city unit support... remember Civ1 with one unit taking one shield!)... but do you have to build units if you don't want to go to war or to Conquest Victory? NO ! So big becomes (potentially) bigger, yes, but big does not becomes more "powerfull", scientifically or economically-wise (except with more luxuries/coal+iron, but TRADE is a part of the game also). Ok, there is still a point that makes conquest very viable in Civ3: concurrence killing, particularly combined with research pools. I call research pools the way AIs trade massively techs between each others, making them the equivalent of a very effective and human player optimized civilization. This is a part that I don't like in Civ3. When you conquered all the civs of your continent, they will not be able to deal with the others and it will be much easier to deal with tech advancement. IMO, it is again the way the map and the number of civs is designed in Civ3. Two systematic continents is not good. Number of continents should be random. And number of civs should be greater, or, for this problem only, they should not trade tech with each other so easily. Developpers should find a way to make them stay competitive. (super small civ is a good way...)
 
Unlinking size from population would be a start. Russia had no more people than USA though larger. Density matters... and how well the government can actually mobilize a fighting force matters. Vietnam anyone? Or Rome? They could MOBILIZE.

Also, to an extent- the idea that no matter what unless certain populations are ready for your rule, you will not rule them. Looking at Iraq today- sure, the US has conquered the nation... and so what now? Unless the people want the rulers there, you would have to instigate very harsh rule to settle the place- like genocide almost.

Conquering low population terrain is one thing- no problems there, if you then send out settlers, like the greeks, or the US in pioneer days. But conquering POPULATED areas is a very different kettle of fish- you can't do it easily without serious resources TIED down there to oppress revolt.

I don't know- the one BIGGEST thing CIV fails to emulate well is politics, from the ancient days up to the modern days the politocs has never felt right- things like the Aechean league, how Rome organized itself, China when it was first united, then fiefed out, then reunited, etc..., Japan's relatively stable though evolving politics, tribalism in Africa and NA, how Europe's "balance of power" ideas led to WWI, defetaed Napoleon, etc... none of this is simulable even remotely as the diplomacy engine is right now.

There need to be true political options and leagues which balance out the bigger guy. It's unfolding today to the US- look at the European Union, China's economic emergence and control over the US economy (by how many $$ they own, literally) which forces the US to deal on equal terms with China (do you hear any communistic ranting about CHina much anymore? No).

It should naturally unfold that as you get more powerful, people don't just team up against you militarily, but *economically* limiting your trade options and ability to maintian your large empire without their acquiescence, so to speak.
 
Well Dearmad, some of the ideas Krikkitone stated are ones I have wholeheartedly supported since 'the year dot'-and I feel certain that Krikkitone knows this, as we have been having these kinds of discussions in numerous other threads for almost a year now ;)!
So, I think some of the key elements in reducing the Big=Bigger phenomenon are:

1) Law of Diminishing returns-the more cities you have, the more expensive it becomes to maintain the same culture levels and research outputs.

2) Tie culture into the extent, and duration, of resistance of newly captured cities-as Krikkitone suggested-thus requiring larger empires to devote more troops to quell resistance (we already know that culture of cities is tied to the defensive bonus of said cities-so this already helps).

3) Maintainance payments for terrain improvements and cities, and better modelling of population and monetary costs of units.

4) Larger Empires are, all other things being equal, more susceptible to Civil Wars and Religious Schisms than Smaller ones.

5) Tie wealth of a city more to its population density and demographics-thus supporting a 'quality over quantity' approach to cities.

6) Have the Health of Cities less tied to distance than by how much you exceed your OCN, and require the construction of improvements and/or Small Wonders to increase your OCN.

Well, those are the key ones which I can think of, based on the discussions here, can anyone think of any I missed?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Really i don't understand you as the big = bigger is viable only for warring civs, in Civ3 you can choose perfectly not to go to war and aim for a Diplomatic victory without going big... really you sound stupid and I don't know what you are aiming at with all those measures, that would make a big empire ****in' IMPOSSIBLE though.

There are two things as I said: big->bigger, and small->powerfull, and I really didn't figured what thing you wanted to obtain through your measures. You just seem to want the disappearition of big empires, maybe to minimize the use of war, or to emphasize the building phase, maybe both, I don't know, but you seem to just want to be able to play an insolent important role with just a civ with a dozen cities... so really what's your ****ing problem with big->bigger? It does not concern you really, as you seem to prefer Diplomatic, Space, Histographic Victories...

Just because you regreat that you could have been more powerfull with more land? Like being able to win a Conquest/Domination Victory just by being a small country? But those two are INCOMPATIBLE couldn't you figure it? You can't win a Conquest/Domination with a small country, that's pure common sense! In fact there is only Space Race Victory that will not take acount of the size of your population. That's written in the game! You don't have to invent a bunch of silly and ununderstandable rules to be conscient that the only thing to do would be to change the WINNING CONDITIONS ! That's the way how Civ3 is designed, period, you need a big territory in order to win. Now, maybe they will change this in Civ4, but don't expect too much for Conquest/Domination Victories though!
 
No, no, no NO!!!!! Being bigger means a better chance of winning ALL the victory conditions. More cities=more money=more science=more chance of a space ship victory. More cities=more places to build spaceship parts=even MORE chance of winning space ship victory.
More cities=more places to build improvements=greater culture=bigger borders=more luxuries and strategic resources.
More cities=more money=easier to bribe other nations to vote for you for the UN=more chance of winning the Diplomatic Victory.
More Cities=more cultural improvements=more culture=more chance of winning the Cultural victory.
You see, in ALL cases, the nation with the MOST cities-the biggest empire-has the biggest chance of winning ALL the victories. Even with the Conquest/Domination victory, though, the Bigger=Better system means that the game is essentially OVER by the time the Modern Age rolls around (and often sooner). Even if this were not true, my biggest GRIPE with this system is how it acts as some kind of FEEDBACK LOOP. The bigger you get, the easier it becomes to expand yet further-so a nation which gets lucky by the early middle ages is effectively set up to win the game-yet we know that, historically, this has NEVER proven to be true. Rome, The Holy Roman Empire, the Mongols, The Spanish, Dutch and British Empires-ALL of them collapsed, eventually, usually because those behind the Empires lacked the competence to maintain something so vast, or because those subjugated finally wanted their own lives back-under their OWN rulers!!!! These facts have GOT to be represented properly if Civ4 is to avoid running into the same Modern Age malaise which currently grips the other iterations of the Franchise. Bigger should NOT always mean better-it should only mean MUCH BETTER MANAGEMENT is required to keep it all from falling apart!!!!!


Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
I have to admit, Aussie, that I don't like the mentioned OCN.
Personally I don't see this as a means to limit the snowball effect, but just as a handicap making the playing for bigger empires more tedious and painful.
As the OCN marks a static threshold, you have different reactions of the engine depending whether you are below or above the threshold. This already constituted a misconception.. but in Civ3, so many elements of the game were flawed.....
 
OK, Commander Bello, as I said I would prefer the OCN to NOT be static, but to be increasible via increasing tech levels and/or the building of appropriate Small Wonders/Improvements.
Also, because corruption would be built into the larger health model, then exceeding your OCN would not be a huge issue if you are taking care of your peoples health in other ways-both of which make OCN MUCH more flexible than in Civ3!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
No, no, no NO!!!!! Being bigger means a better chance of winning ALL the victory conditions. More cities=more money=more science=more chance of a space ship victory. More cities=more places to build spaceship parts=even MORE chance of winning space ship victory.
More cities=more places to build improvements=greater culture=bigger borders=more luxuries and strategic resources.
More cities=more money=easier to bribe other nations to vote for you for the UN=more chance of winning the Diplomatic Victory.
More Cities=more cultural improvements=more culture=more chance of winning the Cultural victory.
You see, in ALL cases, the nation with the MOST cities-the biggest empire-has the biggest chance of winning ALL the victories. Even with the Conquest/Domination victory, though, the Bigger=Better system means that the game is essentially OVER by the time the Modern Age rolls around (and often sooner). Even if this were not true, my biggest GRIPE with this system is how it acts as some kind of FEEDBACK LOOP. The bigger you get, the easier it becomes to expand yet further-so a nation which gets lucky by the early middle ages is effectively set up to win the game-yet we know that, historically, this has NEVER proven to be true. Rome, The Holy Roman Empire, the Mongols, The Spanish, Dutch and British Empires-ALL of them collapsed, eventually, usually because those behind the Empires lacked the competence to maintain something so vast, or because those subjugated finally wanted their own lives back-under their OWN rulers!!!! These facts have GOT to be represented properly if Civ4 is to avoid running into the same Modern Age malaise which currently grips the other iterations of the Franchise. Bigger should NOT always mean better-it should only mean MUCH BETTER MANAGEMENT is required to keep it all from falling apart!!!!!


Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

No, space race is not THAT advantaged by many more cities. Same as for most of your examples that are at the border of the derision. (more cities = more culture = bigger borders = more ressources? com'on! remove the "more culture" part and that's ok though)
And if as you say, the game is pretty over by the modern age, it is not because of a snowball effect but because of the way civ is designed through techs: either you are backward, either you are advanded so you will know if you can catch up before the modern age, or if you will increase your advance. There are many cases of course that are not done before the modern age, and where modern warfare or space race is pretty tough... more, if you make war early, any victory condition is pretty open to you and you may be near a domination/conquest victory, so for sure you may not need to wait the modern age in order to have a win. The fact is that conquest/domination are the quickest victories that you can have.
 
More cities give more culture since that means more temples, more cathedrals etc...

As for space race, it's usually more important who gets tech first, not time to build, so high tech rate is most important, which is very depended from the size of empire.
 
player1 fanatic said:
More cities give more culture since that means more temples, more cathedrals etc...

As for space race, it's usually more important who gets tech first, not time to build, so high tech rate is most important, which is very depended from the size of empire.

More cities not necessarily give more culture, if those cities have passed over the limit of corruption. Plus, more culture does not give that much extra ressources via territory. (that was the point of this notice) However, more cities gives more ressources via territory.

Science rate is much more dependent of your core cities and the improvement there are there than your border cities and, then again, cities that have passed over the limit of corruption...

I'm sorry, but as soon as you have a good starting location, you can plentfully play peacefully in Civ3, building your empire and aiming for a Diplomatic or Spaceship Victory... that's a possibility, and that's not to mix with the big -> bigger thing (cities unit support) which is Conquest related. However, luxuries and iron/coal for railroads is an issue for having a small territory (but there is trade), as well as concurrence killing so that fewer AI civs will advance slower in science. But after all, those are the only advantages to have a bigger territory (or you will never want one), except for the Victory Conditions, which are the root of the game and decide for you tendencies.
 
The main problem is not so much the big= bigger but the fact that the closer you are to a victory condition, the easier it is to get there (rich get richer and poor get poorer)

The solution is too implement balance of power into the game mechanics wich I can see working in two ways

1. Internal, the more cities you have, and the more powerful they are, and the more diverse they are, the more likely they are to try to break off (needing either money from the central funds or military troops) (this would apply to founded cities to a lesser but similar degree as in captured ones)

2. External, the more powerful you are, the more others will view you as a threat to be teamed up against or as a potential plunder source.

The main problem with the way #2 was implemented in previous games was that it was done too late, the great opposition was usually by the time you were dominant, so the foolish little civs that became defiant were rapidly crushed.
 
Or just more against you. The puny little civ is not a big threat for you, but the puny little civ, the outer-sea big boss, the isolated, backward but full of troops civ and your neighbour all togheter can be more dangerous. World war.
 
Well the AIs need to set in on each other too if they are too far ahead, and stop attacking you when you are properly beaten down. (how far you need to be beat down depending on how far you were ahead and how aggressive you've been.)
 
The public works idea from CTP seemed to help slow down expansion since you lost production to pay for them. Once they were built it gave you a boost, but there was the initial payment of slow growth. This could work in cIV if the same type of concept was in place. Some type of growth cost to develope, paid for by the city your working on.

Corruption worked to a degree to slow the growth of the outer most cities but did little to slow the war machine at your empires core.

If cIV lets the health of your core cities be affected as your empire expands, your workers stop because of poor conditions - then the tanks stop rolling off the lines and the trains are no longer on time. This means you have to spend more to appease the masses thus depriving the war machine of capitol to keep expanding. Until your newer cities become more self sufficent and by what the new culture rules sound like that could take some time.

Tie that together with the public works and that should slow the big empires. Not make it harder just require more time and planning (as it should)
 
corruption is a bad name for something inherent in all things.
in a improvement based game like civ, has anyone ever thought of not building a cathedral in a prosperous city during peacetimes? majority would not. but fact is, it is possible to win without having a big city... just focus on what improvements compliment your strategy.
a state should be able to spread culture without owning a particular city. like i guess there is a chinatown almost everywhere... like chinese fastfood take-out.
or if there was one state that could "own" a particular religion. then maybe the "owners" of particularly "great" (numerous?) religions would be winners, culturally, without having to ever be dominating in terms of population, land size, economics, military power, etc.
anyway, going back to the original thought, to tie this all up in terms of gameplay, make it more expensive to have more culture. more wants = more needs. bigger chance of unhappiness. more luxuries to keep people pacified. then name it something else aside from corruption.. hehehehe
 
Perhaps the combat system could also be used to 'slow' the snowball effect in the different eras. <Warning Long and possibly rambling post follows. My apologies in advance - This is a tough idea to explain.>

For example, from the invention of gunpowder up until the development of modern gunpowder weapons (i.e. machine guns) it has been argued Military might was measured more in terms of numbers than in it was in technologies used. Very few Nations kept/ keep huge standing armies around - the expense was and is horrendous. Instead they all have used a levee system (draft, citizen reserve, territorial troops, mercenaries etc.) to augment a cadre of professionals in times of need to get this numerical superiority. The pros had the weoponry expertise and could be used in small conflicts, but major war efforts required that the economies of the country be largly diverted to arms production and technological research largly devoted to finding new weopens. But still, increasingly large armies ruled the day - bodies were cheap and cost effective.

The machine gun put an end to that trend - the slaughter of WW1 was the result. Tanks and armored vehicles put an end to the reign of the machine gun - WW2 was an abberation where both technologies balanced each other out once again allowing large armies to dominate.

But today, the new smart weopons once again allow nations to keep relatively small yet extremely powerful standing armies - but at a huge expense. A modern infantry squad of 10 to 15 men has the firepower of a WW2 Company consisting of over 200 men, amd can probably control an equivalent area of frontage. And no longer can you give a warrior a few weeks training, and then send him home to be called up during campaign season - the new weaopons are complex - it takes constant training to operate them - and training is expensive. Mere Bodies are no longer cheap or cost effective. (It costs over a million dollars to train a modern pilot - even the common foot soldier needs a year or more of specialized trainig to operate todays wonder weoponry.)

To reflect this, the cost of modern military units should be exponentaily more expensive than older ones of the same type. And offensive type units more costly to maintain than defensive ones. An economically successful small nation could afford to keep enough of these 'defensive' around to effectivly defend itself since the manpower required is smaller (plus, they are the 'home' team and get to 'sleep in their own beds' so to speak; therefore they are not as costly to maintain as the 'visitors' who have to carry what they need to survive with them. The Swiss reserve system of today or the German Territorial units in the 70's and 80's are examples)- - if a large nation wants to try and beat up on such a foe it will have to make huge sacrifices in other areas to field a large enough force to defeat the small fry. (Basically, all things being equal, it takes at least a 3 to 1 advantage to the attacker before the odds of a succesful attack are considered great enough to be worth the gamble.) The large nation will have to mobilize it's citizenry, switch production, and logistacally support a large field army. The defender will not have to do this to such an extent - since they are fighting on their home turf, their costs will be less. And in today's high tech high cost high rate of logistic expenditures (ammo and fuel)environment, long wars are just not economically feasable. <The US had to slow down it's advance on Bagdad in Iraq2 because they could not move enough food, fuel and ammo to the front fast enough - they almost ran out of ammo and fuel - and this was a high tech army taking on a 3rd class military power - think if the forces had been equal. If a conventional war in Europe had broken out between NATO and the Warsaw Pact in the 70's or 80's, it would have had to have been decided or taken to the next level (WMDS) in less than a month and a half or so - before both sides ran out of ammo.>

Finally, it is simply not economically feasable to keep old obsolete units hanging around - large empires will not be able to maintain huge offensive forces for an indefinite time. The game could reflect this in :

1) Exponentially increasing costs for more modern untis - ones that are very much more powerful than old units, but extremely expensive.

2) All civics types need to have some form of supported unit allowance - but it needs to be adjusted so it is relativly cheap to keep a small effective defensive force around; (still getting more expensive due to the need for more 'reserve' units) as the empire grows, but economically ruinous to field a large standing army for any long length of time. This will serve to keep periods of conquest interspersed with periods of consolidation to a much greater degree - and the periods of conquests would be shorter and more costly the larger the empire. (Good players will still be able to conquer huge areas in shorter periods of time as the technology increases, but will not be able to maintain the snowball effect indefinitely.)

3) Units have a shelf life. Obsolete units must be disbanded after a certain period. The player can choose to use them to defray the cost of newer units somewhat - gaining hammers, perhaps passing one or two of their 'skills' on to the unit it is helping to train - but the longer they wait the less the unit is worth; eventually it will be worth nothing and will cost so much in maintainence that it will be automatically dispersed. No longer can Civs use these cheap old units to pad out inumerable SOD's - instead they must upgrade their military as the size of the empire grows and the assumed increase in technologicla level that is needed to support that growth.

It seems as though a lot of these concepts may already be in place in Civ4 from what I have read - I am hoping that the designers have taken the snowball effect into consideration already, and part of the reason for the combat changes and less # units is to help control it.

JMHO - food for thought thrown out for dissection. :mischief:
 
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