How do you get a strong start?

[cadamus]

I noticed a discussion about when to start new cities, etc. I wanted to see how people handled the creation of settlers, workers and units. I always seem to end up caught up in building buildings for my cities.

This leads to my being competative through midgame or so, but pretty soon my ability to pump out units to go to war or anything like that is limited by the number of cities I have. I end up with two strong cities, and 2-3 lagards.

I could just play the guys who only build 2-3 cities, but at some point I have to get this figured out

So what do you do to get a strong start? What units or buildings do you build in what order? Would it be worth it to just force my self to alternate units and buildings?

Thanks!

Cad

 

[Feyd Rautha]

I'm by no means an expert, but I do the following...

At the start of the game I build warriors (maybe an additional scout if not playing raging barbs) until I hit the happiness cap on my capitol. I will sometimes build a worker before then if I'm in a bad food situation (lots of plains for example) and need to get some farming/pasturing done ASAP.

After that I make a worker (if I had't already) and then a settler. I might go with another settler, but typically I have Mysticism by that point and want to get an Elder Council built ASAP so I can start on my first GP (Sage). Then it's another settler and I'm off to the races.

After I reach a point where I cannot REX anymore (breaking even at 50% science) I might build one more settler (for reserve) and then I'll start in with my standard fare for the rest of the game which is Building>Unit>Building. I've found that this leaves me with a sizeable force and allows my cities to grow or my civ to tech to make my next build option viable. Obviously I don't hold to this when I MUST build something (an extra unit if prepping or conducting a war or a happiness/health building if I accidentally bump over the cap), but I try to hold myself to it generally.

Now, if you are having cities that are just not that good out on the outskirts of your civilization then don't underestimate the power of terraforming. I try to push out about 2-3 workers per town so once I have an adequate defense in place I will build workers until I meet this goal. By the time I have my core cities completely terraformed I'm ready to REX again whether through conquest or settlers and my build order changes accordingly.

A few notes...
On a new city post initial REX I will build a Monument, Elder Council, Marketplace before switching to a unit. (Minus the monument if I'm Creative)

Also, don't shy away from using JUST Agrarian after a REX period. The quicker those border towns get their population up the faster they can use the massive improvements you are building up for them and thereby the faster they build up their production. City States/Agrarianism works great if you can manage the culture penalty.

Oh and set up a military city. This city needs two things. Enough food to keep it growing quickly and enough mines to keep it producing well. This city is for units only so it won't need any of the fancy schmancy buildings that bog down all the others. You will need only three types of buildings: Unit Unlock buildings (Training Yard, Archery Range, etc.), Production buildings (+, +, and forges, but avoid any that are overly expensive for only +1 or like Inns or even gambling houses or theatres [since it could wind up locking down your tech slider]), and wonders and other buildings that give buffs to units built in that city (Ride of the Nine Kings, Tower of the Nine Kings, Altars of the Luonnotar, Command Post, Shrine of the Champion, etc.). Basically I'd produce 3 units after every building gets built before starting on another building. Don't bother with defensive units/workers as your regular cities should be interspersing those exclusively between their buildings. Finally, get a handful of mages in the city to buff the troops as they are made. Try to get the Dragon's Horde so you can forgo enchanted blades, but a spirit mage, law mage, and stonewarden sitting there waiting to buff can make a big difference for these "elite" troops.

 

[readercolin]

Here's how I taught my girlfriend how to REX and build a larger empire.

Take, settle your capital. First thing you build is 2-3 warriors (amount depends upon difficulty level, and whether or not you have raging barbarians selected - I usually build 3 warriors, but I always play with raging barbarians on, and agressive AI). Then, look around - do you have any resources that you can improve soon? If yes, build a worker. After you decide if you need a worker now, build 2-3 warriors and a settler. Then, once you have built the settler, build a worker (1st or 2nd). Once you have that, look and see if there is 1 building that you reaaaly need RIGHT now. If yes, then build that. If not, build another 2-3 warriors, 1 settler, 1 worker. Then see if there is a building you need again. Repeat until you can't afford to expand any more, or you run out of room to expand to.

So your build queue should look like this.
First city built.
Build 2 warriors
build worker (if needed)
Repeat the following until you run out of room:{
build 2-3 warriors
build settler
build worker
build building}

Please note, this isn't always the best build method, and it changes depending upon what kind of game your playing, and who you're playing as. But if you want to try to get used to REXing, it is a good point to start at till you find the method that best fits the civ you're using.

In the new cities that you found, I always build a monument first unless I'm playing as a creative leader. Then, because they usually aren't in as good a spot as my capital, and I don't have enough workers to improve my capital as much as I want to (I want to have every square at my capital working an improved tile if I can), they can't add much to my REX, but they do cost me maintenance, I'll have them build buildings that help bring in gold, commerce, or science. So, depending upon my techs, I will usually build an elder council or a market if that is available. By the time my first new city has built those 3 buildings, I can then set it to producing workers or defensive units, depending upon my needs. If it starts building workers, then I can pull them out of my capital's build queue.

Using this general build method, and depending upon your start you can usually end up with a large number of cities compared to your opponents. If you're used to playing as Cardith Lorda, I recommend trying out the elves, as both groups tend to focus more on large highly productive cities that generalize in everything. Then once you have the hang of REXing down, move on to other civs that you want to try. Another civ that tends to have large, highly productive cities is the Calibam, and they're fairly simple to play as - rush code of laws and calendar, switch to aristocracy/agrarianism, build govenors manors in every city, and spam farms like they're going out of style. They can do well with a few very good cities and a bunch of mediocre ones.

Hope this helps

-Colin

 

[hbar]

One nice trick mid-early game is have a leveled scout (or a hunter if you plan on going down the recon line) go bear hunting (with animal handling, of course). Dancing bears (+1, +3) are great for popping culture without building monuments.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Also, if you have your first bear and you heal it up out in the wilderness you can make a bear den supposedly. I have a savegame with some extra bears on it (for later cities) so I might check it out.

 

[cadamus]

Cool, clearly I am spending too much time on buildings. A couple more questions, please.

First, what is REX? (So I'm a noob...)

Second, I tend to play advanced starts. I assume for those the logic stills follows, its just a bit further along. Go monument, Eldar council, Market, and spam units? (Assuming that I have sent along a couple of warriors for defense.)

Thanks!

Cad

 

[Feyd Rautha]

REX = Rapid EXpansion. Basically pushing out settlers until your economy gets stretched to about 50% tax/50% science.

If you play advanced start then that changes things dramatically.

Found your city in a spot with plenty of food, add a worker and two scouts and try to get as many techs as you can. In order I would buy Agriculture, Animal Handling, Calendar, Crafting, Mining, Ancient Chants, Education and finally Mysticism. If you can get those and have some points left over then try to add extra population to the town.

At that point, build three or four warriors for defense/secondary exploration, and then build your elder council. You don't need a monument in your starting city (the palace has culture) and I generally avoid Marketplaces until I get an economy set up since the -1 :beaker: is a big deal in the early game. I only build it once I start taking -5 or more on my income at 100% science.

You can get Festivals as your first tech or you can push bronze working as needed. Personally I've always found myself at an automatic disadvantage with advanced starts because the AI beelines for ROK or FOL (runes of kilimorph or fellowship of leaves) without having to race me. Also you'll have guys like Jonas/Sheelba that will use For the Horde quickly and get some much more advanced techs from all the huts they pop.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I thought REX was Rapid Early eXpansion.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Could be... Comparing Civ4 to Civ2 and 3 where that came from though makes it more like MEX (Meandering Expansion). Personally, I count a REX as any phase I enter where I am pushing my borders with settlers.

 

[Breez]

So your build queue should look like this.
First city built.
Build 2 warriors
build worker (if needed)
Repeat the following until you run out of room:{
build 2-3 warriors
build settler
build worker
build building}

I kind of do the same thing

Build 2 warriors
build worker (Always needed for me but I play with the extra resource option on)
build 2 warriors
build settler
build building
build 2 warriors
build settler
build building

Then I evaluate

 

[Demus]

I thought REX was Rapid Early eXpansion.

wasn't it just Rapid EXpansion? Basically any phase where you sacrifice defence and city improvements in favour of gaining cities (and land) quickly, usually followed by a turle-phase where you get your defence and building lvls back up to scale.

 

[Senethro]

Am I alone in going Worker first and researching Agriculture?

 

[readercolin]

Going worker first as anything other than the lurchip will leave you with a size 1 city for quite a while. Personally, I find it better to build a few warriors for defense (but then, I play with raging barbs) until I am working the maximum amount of +food or +hammers that I can (so if I start with say, 1 corn, 1 cows, and 1 forested hill, I'll try to get to size 3 before I build a worker or settler). The only other exception is the calibam - use your worldspell right at the beginning, and you start with a size 3 city - a DEFINATE advantage in the early game.

-Colin

 

[Senethro]

Does working Grassland Forests really get you that much of an advantage?

 

[heisenberg]

I do go worker first with agri when there aren't many useful tiles around at the start, then go straight calendar for agarian and plantations.

As for the Calabim, I don't quite agree with using the worldspell once you settle for 3 pop--you might have overlooked the other effect of it setting everyone else back by 2 pop.
I prefer to either use it when I hit 3-4 pop just to reach my happy cap and set everyone else back to 1 pop, or I'd rush a settler out early just to get 2 extra pop in both cities with the spell.

 

[loffenx]

I usually build one warrior and then a worker, which gives me time to research ~two starter techs before the worker is done, usually calendar or crafting if the apropriate resources are availible. Then I build troops untill somewhere between pop 4-6, depending on the speed of growth, and then it is time for a settler.

 

[Breez]

Does working Grassland Forests really get you that much of an advantage?

how often do you settle that 1st city is those areas? I typically have several resources in my BFC. Those 2-5 spots usually give a small bonus even with out a worker improving them Corn, Wheat, Marble etc making growing to size 2 asap worth while.

 

[scutarii]

when workable tiles and my starting tech are appropriate, eg agri for wheat then my 1st is worker. then warriors.

 

[Ferrosol]

my approach for the capital

3 warriors
Settler
*dispatch settler with 2 warriors escort*
2 warriors
if anything improvable build worker
if not repeat till science slider is 50%

for the new cities

1 warrior
Monument
training yard/Archery range
3 defensive units
worker
then specialise as production/science etcetera

 

[JonathanStrange]

My approach depends on the map and level, though generally I play Pangaea, Deity level, with Raging Barbarians. Those settings almost always mean early and constant battle with enemy Civs or pillaging barbs.

Therefore my unit build priority, city establishment, techs researched is probably more heavily skewed to surviving the early stages than it is at quick knockouts or dominance.

Since I usually play the Ljosalfars, I'll use them as an example:

*Capitol is sited on the nearest best defensible tile (preferably hill) with river access and resources. Why? Deity attacks come fast and frequent, so the hill helps in defense while the river allows the Ljos to minimize roadbuilding (by using the river to connect to capitol). Fewer roads means slower enemy invasions while the Ljos can still doublemove through nearby forests.
* Units: At least 3 Warriors queued right off, while the 2 starting scouts explore. Why? Enemy comes in strength (usually far more than I can handle offensively)so I usually need a lot of defense, it generally being suicide to intercept every 10 warrior stack. I avoid an early Worker 'cause of the many pillaging enemies; we grow fast enough without, depends on map though.
* Techs chosen to beeline to a specific goal. In the Ljosalfars' case, a convenient though narrow path will take them to Fellowship of the Leaves and Archery. Why? It plays to their civ's particular strengths.
* Buildings: I always prioritize buidings that leverage my civ's strengths and leader's traits. In the Ljosalfars' case, they have a +1 Archer attack strength, an early Archer hero, double production speed for palisades and archery ranges. So I virtually always build these, in the early cities. If I'm playing a different civ, I often don't bother with archers at all. Economic buildings vary per nearby resources.
*Civics: I try to synchronize the Civics with the particular nation and tech path I've chosen. For example, the Ljo nation and its FoL tech path, creates early opportunities for the switching to God King, Apprenticeship and Agrarianism. Later I'll be switching as needed to other civics, but the point is to get useful early civics that come naturally with the designated tech path.

I don't like recommending general tech paths because each civ and starting location can make too much of a difference to appy a general path. My early Deity game is usually about survival as I rarely have chokepoints to intercept enemy troops and have to defend early on. So I think my way is going to be different from many others. However, here's a typical Ljosalfar tech path:

Agriculture==>Ancient Chants==>Education (Cottage/Apprenticeship Civic)
Exploration (free)==> Hunting (some Hunters for basic defense) ==>Archery (Ljo' strength/early Hero)
Mysticism ==> Way of the Forest (going for Fellowship religion which is crucial for Elves)

These techs are usually enough to give a healthy start for the Ljos, they're "along the way" for the most part, and don't require detours. My basic goal for a strong Deity start on a Pangaea map is to avoid early destruction, minimize friendly casualties (let the enemy attack us), build enough Warriors to garrison the capitol in depth while being ready to escort the first Settler with 2-3 Warriors.