How often does backstabbing happen?

[JamesCivFan]

Simple question: How often have you been backstabbed by your immediate neighbor on higher difficulties?

It seems to happen to me in 9 out of every 10 games I play.

By "backstabbing" I mean either getting denounced or getting declared war on --especially early--.

 

[Truthy]

I'd put it at a similar figure. They back stab a lot and I couldn't say that they have any logical reason to do it either.

 

[joncnunn]

Under the current patch:

5 times by the German AI on the same game; who have also done the same thing 5 times to the Persian AI (the other AI on our landmass.)

The thing is though that Germany last lost all 8 of the wars that have occurred and was already well on it's way to losing the 9th when it also DOWed me again. (Barely started but his army is really outdated and undermanned.)

I think I'm playing against Bin Laden instead of Bismark.

 

[Lone Cat]

for me 'backstab' doesn't just mean war or another civ terminated any pacts before it runs the course...

surprisingly, pact of secrecy runs the longest course! sometimes 100 turns or more!

the pact of cooeration (I stilll don't know its usefulness) is the first to be terminated early.
another 'backstabbing' is. research agreement (rival civilizations propose this... as bilateral agreement, he'she asked you to sign one with him. AND EACH must pay 250 golds (which goes to none but labrats!) this proposal comes when you're about to gift your favorite citystates with 250 golds or more. I believe that the rival wants the same citystate him/her self.

 

[Uberfrog]

Wait a minute, isn't "backstabbing" when someone with whom you have a declaration of friendship declares war on you? I haven't often had an actual backstab, but I'd guess it happens when a) you fall far behind your "friend" military-wise, or b) you get too powerful for their liking.

Plain denunciations or declarations of war are common enough, but to call them "backstabs" is a bit misleading. It doesn't matter if it says they are "friendly": that's just their perception of you and it can change. A backstab would be when you have formally made an alliance (read: DoF) and they've betrayed you.

 

[Truthy]

Wait a minute, isn't "backstabbing" when someone with whom you have a declaration of friendship declares war on you?

Back when the UK and US declared war on each other during the 50s.

a) you fall far behind your "friend" military-wise,

Just like how the US declared war on Canada.

or b) you get too powerful for their liking.

Similar to that time the Warsaw Pact declared war on the USSR.

Plain denunciations or declarations of war are common enough, but to call them "backstabs" is a bit misleading.

Definitely.

 

[mabalogna]

Logical reason: You are human, they are machine.

Machine logic: Kill all humans.

 

[JWAT44]

Back when the UK and US declared war on each other during the 50s.


Just like how the US declared war on Canada.


Similar to that time the Warsaw Pact declared war on the USSR.


Definitely.

none of those things happened!!!!!!!!! i still think you're joking though so lol

back on topic backstabbing also counts when you had had declarations of friendship before but they were expired and they declared war on you. denunciations only count as backstabs under current declarations of friendship but declarations of war count if your declaration of friendship expired or is still active (the ai even says so and does it a lot more now)

 

[JWAT44]

Logical reason: You are human, they are machine.

Machine logic: Kill all humans.

its also the same as alien logic

 

[PrAyTeLLa]

for me 'backstab' doesn't just mean war or another civ terminated any pacts before it runs the course...

surprisingly, pact of secrecy runs the longest course! sometimes 100 turns or more!

the pact of cooeration (I stilll don't know its usefulness) is the first to be terminated early.
another 'backstabbing' is. research agreement (rival civilizations propose this... as bilateral agreement, he'she asked you to sign one with him. AND EACH must pay 250 golds (which goes to none but labrats!) this proposal comes when you're about to gift your favorite citystates with 250 golds or more. I believe that the rival wants the same citystate him/her self.

Wait, what? What version are you playing?

 

[eazyseeker]

Wait, what? What version are you playing?

Pacts of Cooperation/Secrecy were all in in earlier versions, but they have been replaced by DoF and Denouncements. Probably the guy's been playing the demo/unupdated/pirated version.

 

[snarzberry]

It's simple, if you're going to so expand the definition of 'backstab' to include early denouncements and DoWs by neighbours who you don't even have DoFs with then it happens regularly.

If you adopt a more narrow, and more sensible IMO, definition such as Uberfrog outlined then it happens rarely.

 

[apocalypse105]

Well as long as they choose to keep this typ of AI it will happen a lot because the AI declares war based on numbers(gold,soldiers,happiness- instead of to counting on his flavors(loyalty,positif modifiers negatif modifiers)

 

[Brichals]

It happens all the time when you deserve it.

If you play ball with your neighbours you can keep them friendly I think.

 

[civnoob13]

for me 'backstab' doesn't just mean war or another civ terminated any pacts before it runs the course...

surprisingly, pact of secrecy runs the longest course! sometimes 100 turns or more!

the pact of cooeration (I stilll don't know its usefulness) is the first to be terminated early.
another 'backstabbing' is. research agreement (rival civilizations propose this... as bilateral agreement, he'she asked you to sign one with him. AND EACH must pay 250 golds (which goes to none but labrats!) this proposal comes when you're about to gift your favorite citystates with 250 golds or more. I believe that the rival wants the same citystate him/her self.

Wait ... why do you still have pacts of co-operation and pacts of secrecy?

(edit) nevermind, already been asked and answered

 

[jahsoldier]

Suleiman is a slimy bugger, in a recent game he befriended me, then suddenly declared war (I assume I had resources he wanted), followed by a generous peace offering when I took his army to school. Immediately after the war he was back to 'friendly' and stayed that way until our mutual enemy Siam wiped him out.

You don't have to see it as illogical when allies backstab you, just make a story out of it

 

[Tapewormlondon]

I cant comment on it too much as I have only played one game post patch. But in that game I was backstabbed by Askia......who I crushed into a one city civ. But everyone else in my DOF group remained friends.......they also denounced him for his trickery. If thats the way its going to play in most games I will be happy.

Much better than being dogpiled by everyone.

 

[JamesCivFan]

I am not only talking about the narrow meaning of back stab. For example , I often see the text "Although feigning friendship with you..." etc etc, when they declare war on me. Isn't that a backstabbing dialog?

In the latest patch notes, 2kGreg said the following, among other notes:
[DIPLOMACY]

Made backstab routine more transparent (the dialog will clearly state that they are backstabbing you).

Isn't this one of the dialog texts he was talking about? If so, I get that one really often. Especially from the Germans, the Aztecs, and the Greeks. So much that I know and predict that they will do it, no matter what I do in diplomacy, which is what "frustrates" me the most.

 

[LostInTime]

Gandhi spammed wonders for me one game. (quite nice of him really) All other neighbors declare at me every game. (Deity) It's just not possible keeping friendly with them, so I sell lots of stuff to them early on and wait for the DoW so I can sell again

But ye, blame ******** AI for this. The unit spam gets so high quick because they don't know what to do at all with their games so they need ridiculous bonuses to compete.

 

[Redmonkiee]

As well as the way they phrase their reasons for dow'ing you, (just like you put it) there is also a big, red, capitalised BACKSTABBED written somewhere in my experience.

My personal answer to your question, how often does a backstab happen on higher level, is all the time. If they "covet your lands", you will get backstabbed, dow'd, denounced, hated and voodoo dolled no matter what. It's just a matter of (not much) time. If you have a weak army it'll be sooner, if you have a large army it'll be a little later with the pathetic "I know I don't have a chance" play. Added to the fact the AI can pump out 10+ units for your 2, make them count. I wish I had a screen from a game I played where the (thankfully friendly at the time) Aztecs had about 50 units passing through my territory in the "iron" stage of the early game. Though they were mostly slingers, and when he did dow me eventually I had my companion cav. mop them up. Still... 50 units that early!

I play immortal. Never win. Ever. But the one below (emperor?) I find that although it is difficult at start I can eventually overcome and get well ahead. If you can hold on and survive the initial round of backstabbing attacks you could be in a very good position via peace deals to pull ahead of the pack (they usually give you most everything they have if you cripple them). Use these resources and GPT to prepare for the next backstab.

Advice I give, but have been unable to follow myself. Soon enough. Immortal, marathon is my preference. Damned hard for me.