How to check the compatibility between different mods?

[Guntha Hamma]

Hi mates,

I have started using a massive amount of mods since the "Custom Advanced Setup Screen" mod allowed me and my friends to play modded hotseat games. Then I'm wondering if there's a simple way to check the compatibility between different mods. Maybe an application like the JoneSoft Generic Mod Enabler which has been so useful for many videogame?

 

[Gedemon]

If someone found I simple way, I hope he'll tell me so that I can add it to the Custom Advanced Setup Screen

Sadly, I don't see how it could be done, except by reporting to a modder which mods are incompatible with his mod, and if there is a way to fix that.

If not, and if the incompatibility is game breaking (some could just be small UI interference) the modder can mark the other mod as "blocked" from his, and the game will then prevent them to be activated at the same time.

Now it may be possible to code an external application to check the mod folder content and mark the possible incompatibilities (same values changed, same files overriden, ...) or make a mod to check that (referring to a manually updated database of known incompatibilities) but that won't be "simple" to do.

 

[Guntha Hamma]

Maybe the modders should accept a common rule about this issue, like specifying which files are modded into the description of the mod in the Steam Workshop. Of course having an application like the good old JSGME available for CIV would be great.

 

[Guntha Hamma]

Ooops! And btw: thank YOU, Gedemon. I was looking forward to playing a modded hotseat match since the release of CIV!!

 

[Guntha Hamma]

Is there a simple way to manually check the compatibility between mods? Usually - I mean, with most videogames - it's about comparing the content of the different versions of the same file which is shared by the different mods, and looking for possible conflicts. But checking the files the mods are made of, it seems that they have unique names and they are not meant to overwrite any file in the civ5\assets folder. Am I wrong? If not, how does the 'activating a mod' procedure work in CIV? Are the contents of the files the mods are made of temporarily added to the game engine, without the need to overwrite anything? this should prevent a lot of conflicts between mods, shouldn't it? But, on the other hand, it would be harder for a user to spot the possible conflicts between mods. So, could anyone explain me how these things work? I'd really like to find a way to let the users build their own mega-mod, free of conflicts and bugs. I think this should be a priority, considering that Steam is letting users create their own mods collection - we should give them the tools to create real collections, not bugged mod soups.

p.s. sorry for my bad english, I wrote this post in one swallow and have not enough time to read and check it.

 

[DonQuiche]

with most videogames it's about comparing the content of the different versions of the same file which is shared by the different mods, and looking for possible conflicts. But checking the files the mods are made of, it seems that they have unique names and they are not meant to overwrite any file in the civ5\assets folder. Am I wrong?

Civ5 mods rarely overwrite existing art assets. However:
* Mods that modify the UI typically overwrite a few standard UI files and this may be a cause of conflict (not always: sometimes mods make the same standard modification that allows collaboration between mods).
* Many mods modify the game data (they do not overwrite files, they write files that change data in memory) and sometimes one may delete a data row used by another one or things like that.

If not, how does the 'activating a mod' procedure work in CIV? Are the contents of the files the mods are made of temporarily added to the game engine, without the need to overwrite anything?

Indeed, nothing is overwritten, everything happens in memory.

this should prevent a lot of conflicts between mods, shouldn't it?

Not really: of course none of them mess up the other's installation (no Elder Scrolls mods hell syndrome) but you still can't use them together since they mess up each other's "virtual installation".

But, on the other hand, it would be harder for a user to spot the possible conflicts between mods.

This is harder than just checking the files but not terribly harder for most mods, let's say two hours of work for a competent developer without taking the UI into account (add 5 to 10 hours for a baisc, decent, UI). However a few problems cannot be detected that easily and would require more work than this.

Note that I am talking about a third-party tool, not a mod. Detecting conflicts is not possible for a mod as Gedemon explained.

 

[Guntha Hamma]

Thank you DonQuiche. It's almost all clear. I'd like to know the opinion from modders and players about the urge of having this kind of tool. I seriously think that there is a huge gap between the ability to create individual collections of mods, which is implemented in the Steam workshop, and the ability to play with them. There are so many great mods, but some unavoidable conflicts often prevent the player from using them massively - Last time I started a match having more than 15 mods 'installed', and everything went fine until I built my first missionary, which appeared unable to spread the religion: the option was missing. It was strange just because I had not any mod about religion installed.
Are the common players 'doomed' to wait for modders to release their own bug-free mod collections? Or maybe is anyone interested into developing the external tool we are talking about? Also a tutorial about how to check compatibility between mods could be a starting point.. maybe?

 

[Gedemon]

I'm tempted to say it's the responsibility of the collection's creator to check that the mods in it are all compatible... And the responsibility of the user to report (politely) to the collection creator if he has found an incompatibility

About you own experience with the missionary without the ability to spread religion, I don't see how a tool could find such things. It's not even certain that's it's an incompatibility, it could simply be a bug in one of the mod (and would do the same when used alone...)

edit: I think there was a good post about mods incompatibility in the forum, posted a while back, but I can't find it...

 

[whoward69]

edit: I think there was a good post about mods incompatibility in the forum, posted a while back, but I can't find it...

This one? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=412048

 

[Gedemon]

yes, or another one very similar

 

[Guntha Hamma]

That's very interesting. My opinion is that the 'traffic light' classification should be generally admitted and used by the modders community. If every mod published into the Steam Workshop had this kind of tag, well, that would be very very useful for players

 

[DonQuiche]

So you want us, modders, besides of spending tens to hundreds of hours developing their mods, to spend more hundreds of hours to test their mod against every other mod?

 

[Guntha Hamma]

So you want us, modders, besides of spending tens to hundreds of hours developing their mods, to spend more hundreds of hours to test their mod against every other mod?

No, really. Just using the green-yellow-red distinction. It's something that can be done 'a priori'. Check out the post by Spatzimaus in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=412048

 

[whoward69]

Given that most new to intermediate modders are incapable of setting the "affects saved game" flag correctly (and just leave it at the default) there is zero chance that any red/amber/green system will be applied consistently and correctly (and I'm guessing that most new modders, wanting the most people to download and try their wonderful, earth shaking mod, will always set it to green), so there will be no value to that system UNLESS there is a "mod-evaluation and clearance centre" - and that just ain't going to happen ... see my first post in that same thread - there is just not the time in the world to do it.

 

[DonQuiche]

No, really. Just using the green-yellow-red distinction. It's something that can be done 'a priori'. Check out the post by Spatzimaus in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=412048

My apologies, I thought you were talking about something else.
That being said, to complement what Whoward said, another problem with beginners is that some of them may overlook or not understand compatibility problems. Some of them just struggled to create a basic mod and are far to fully understand the civ5 platform.

 

[Guntha Hamma]

there is zero chance that any red/amber/green system will be applied consistently and correctly (and I'm guessing that most new modders, wanting the most people to download and try their wonderful, earth shaking mod, will always set it to green) /QUOTE]

Got it. But... ok, I apologize for my persisting on this issue, but even if there's no chance to have this system massively adopted by the modders community, I think that some steps into the right direction could be done anyway. Perhaps by posting a tutorial, then exhorting the modders to take a look at it.
Given my previous experience with mods, I think that keeping this issue unresolved will lead to negative consequences to users and modders.
Let me tell this example: I have recently played a beautiful hotseat match by using a bunch of mods, which eventually - more than 150 turns had been already played - proved to be not compatible. I can't look for any conflict between them. Therefore, the match is wasted.
Whether I look forward to playing a heavily improved/modded game again, I'll be compelled to rely on mod projects like NiGHTS, which is great, but this choice will deny to me the chance to customize the game in a more personal way. There will be a lot of mods I'd like to use, but I won't, because not having any guarantee about its compatibility with other mods, I won't take the risk of starting another hotseat match the could prove broken after hours of good gameplay.
If I could rely on this green-yellow-red code for some mods, well I could be willing to do some experiment, maybe I could start with a core of mods that are 'certified' and try to add other 'uncertified' mods one by one.
Without any given info about their chance of getting into conflicts together, mods which add small improvements to the gameplay are at disadvantage compared to mods which radically improve the gameplay. This happens if small improvements can't be piled up. If I cannot play with no more than, let's say, two or three mods together, I will always go for major mods.

I hope to find somebody here who agrees with me. Maybe someone with modding experience. We could make this tutorial and check if part of the modding community is inclined to adopt the G-Y-R classification we were talking about.

 

[Gedemon]

Not that we want to discourage you, but even a tutorial, well, I don't see what to put in it.

To check two mods for compatibility, you first need to know what they are changing exactly, there is no fast/easy way.

 

[DonQuiche]

But... ok, I apologize for my persisting on this issue

No need to apologize, you're concerned and this is totally acceptable, besides we all suffer from that. And the discussion is interesting.

Let me tell this example: I have recently played a beautiful hotseat match by using a bunch of mods, which eventually - more than 150 turns had been already played - proved to be not compatible. I can't look for any conflict between them. Therefore, the match is wasted.

But are you even sure this is a compatibility problem? Some mods already had this "crash/freeze at turn 50*N" happen, it is a very hard to detect bug, not only because it requires the modder to play 300 turns anytime he makes a change to his code, but also because this is a civ5 bug (just a guess - I never encountered it with IGE - but very likely) and therefore very hard to circumvent (rather than fix - another guess).

And even if it was an incompatibility, the problem remains the same: this kind of crazy civ5 bug is not predictable, unless your problem was not a freeze, crash or something like that but rather, and for example, the tech tree that became unusable.

There will be a lot of mods I'd like to use, but I won't, because not having any guarantee about its compatibility with other mods, I won't take the risk of starting another hotseat match the could prove broken after hours of good gameplay.

And this is a wise decision but it does not mean there is a solution. Modders are not omniscient : we are working with a bugged and undocumented platform, and hundreds of us are working independently, and most of us only have average computers skills. There is no way we can predict in advance all compatibility issues, even for the best of us, far from that. We can give clues and those of know already do it. Look at mods from myself, from Gedemon, from Whoward, etc: I am pretty sure that most of those creations have compatibility informations (I only have two mods myself but they both provide those data). But in no way we can be exhaustive and offers any guarantee.

Besides, the Spatzimaus solution is not as useful for you as you think it is...
* Green will be seen as "no problem". Well, this is true for 0.1% of mods.
* Mods such as Nights will likely fall in the red category. But does it mean it won't work with IGE? With InfoAddict? With the wonders mods from Whoward? No. It will work with those, perfectly (I took some measures for this and I suspect that Markus did too). And it is not that surprising.
* As a result 99% of mods should be yellow? Where will you set your own bar? Green mods only (no mod), are yellow-green ones only (about every mod)?

I do not think such a system would work.

If I could rely on this green-yellow-red code for some mods, well I could be willing to do some experiment, maybe I could start with a core of mods that are 'certified' and try to add other 'uncertified' mods one by one.

I think you should better read the compatibility information already provided by the mods' authors and try to understand when compatibility problems are likely to arise. I do not really believe in community education or propaganda, especially because new modders already have a helluva things to read and they won't jump on the "improving compatibility guide". Now, maybe a software could help to improve things but I do not think there would be enough users to change anything. Just using a tool to check the mod you created or downloaded sounds easy but in practice people do not bother in my experience.

 

[whoward69]

Perhaps by posting a tutorial

Who is going to write that tutorial? Writing tutorials take many tens, possibly even hundreds, of hours of work ... which most of the modders competent enough to write such a tutorial are almost certainly going to want to use that time writing their own mods.

I have recently played a beautiful hotseat match by using a bunch of mods

Don't. Play with a few, then when you're happy that those work together, add a few more. Then add a few more.

If I could rely on this green-yellow-red code ...

You are never going to be able to rely on any code where that code is self-proclaimed by the person who wrote the mod, as you are relying on that person's knowledge of the subject to be complete, and as shown many, many times on these forums that will never be the case.

Furthermore, it is relatively simple to write two "green" mods that are incompatible with each other - they probably won't crash your game, but they certainly won't behave as expected.