How to deal with the tech club at emperor?

[Sjaramei]

I just started doing emperor games instead of monarch. After a lucky it seems domination win at my first try, i've run into some speed bumps now. (romans = easy mode so i don't do them anymore)

I usually start with 3-4 cities, kill a neighbor quick with a axe/sword rush to get a couple of more cities and weaken him alot. I've given up trying to get oracle now so i tech slowly towards CoL after getting all important worker techs. This part works fine and isn't the problem.

If any of these are in the game i get screwed over big time in tech after this.
Mansa, Huayna, Gandhi, Hatsepsut. (The tech club )

They tech so fast it's not even funny... my last game i fought with trebs/maces against rifles/cavs around 1300 AD or something. (is this normal?) i sued for peace while beelining the last couple of techs for chemistry/cannons. It was too late and i razed one city from him and got beat back home after that. I kinda gave up then. (not funny seeing tech trade and all the AI's have 9-10 techs on you and democracy which i used to catch up in tech with is already researched..)

My problems i think is that i'm very bad at getting Great People(i get 1-2 scientists during the game when they matter), and diplomacy. I'm working on those of course, and my diplomacy problem is religion, the right one never seems to spread to me so i usually stay with no state religion most of the game. (this is bad i know, maybe unlucky here as well?)

But my question is this. If you start with one or twocry from the tech club in the game do you target them first for your conquest? (or later ones if they got a buffer civ in between) Or should i try to get them in wars at all costs during the game to slow them down instead? Without them in the game i usually do just fine in keeping up.

(my game settings at the moment are Warlords 2.08 Standard/epic speed/pangaea)

 

[stuge]

Well, I haven't made many attempts on emperor+, but my gut instinct is that lightbulbing & deep bee-lines are the way to go. Via bulbing working on lines that the AI often ignores, like metal casting-machinery, or chemistry-steel, you gain valuable trade fodder.

Also, think about wars of attrition. Don't even plan to capture cities, just loot and burn the countryside. Learn to spot possible runaway civs (lots of halfway-decent land is a good indicator) when you can still stifle them.

 

[uberfish]

No state religion is a valid choice, you have less allies but also less worst enemies. Sounds like you need to concentrate more on your economic development after the first rush, because your maces seem to be coming in very late. Once your rush is finishing and you stop military production, you should start building and working cottages and also whip a library in one or two high food cities and hire 2 scientists there, this will get you your great scientists when you need them.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I am myself not the best emperor player, but I do have some advice. First, I would agree with your choice of no state religion, it's just not worth the enemies. Second, learn what techs the AI's avoid and either beeline them or lightbulb them yourself (Alpha, Philosophy, and Metal Casting immediately come to mind) and trade them to everyone who will trade with you (which is why I don't go with a state religion: less people dislike you). Finally, if you can bribe AI's into war, it will slow down their tech pace. Just make sure one AI doesn't dominate the other and become too powerful.

 

[oyzar]

all the financial leaders tech extreemly fast. All you have to do is get enough land and you will eventually catch up.

 

[axident]

I just started doing emperor games instead of monarch. After a lucky it seems domination win at my first try, i've run into some speed bumps now. (romans = easy mode so i don't do them anymore)

I usually start with 3-4 cities, kill a neighbor quick with a axe/sword rush to get a couple of more cities and weaken him alot. I've given up trying to get oracle now so i tech slowly towards CoL after getting all important worker techs. This part works fine and isn't the problem.

If any of these are in the game i get screwed over big time in tech after this.
Mansa, Huayna, Gandhi, Hatsepsut. (The tech club )

They tech so fast it's not even funny... my last game i fought with trebs/maces against rifles/cavs around 1300 AD or something. (is this normal?) i sued for peace while beelining the last couple of techs for chemistry/cannons. It was too late and i razed one city from him and got beat back home after that. I kinda gave up then. (not funny seeing tech trade and all the AI's have 9-10 techs on you and democracy which i used to catch up in tech with is already researched..)

My problems i think is that i'm very bad at getting Great People(i get 1-2 scientists during the game when they matter), and diplomacy. I'm working on those of course, and my diplomacy problem is religion, the right one never seems to spread to me so i usually stay with no state religion most of the game. (this is bad i know, maybe unlucky here as well?)

But my question is this. If you start with one or twocry from the tech club in the game do you target them first for your conquest? (or later ones if they got a buffer civ in between) Or should i try to get them in wars at all costs during the game to slow them down instead? Without them in the game i usually do just fine in keeping up.

(my game settings at the moment are Warlords 2.08 Standard/epic speed/pangaea)

Just keep rushing, if you are playing freaking pangaea at Epic speed. Swordsmen (and maybe a few spears and axes for D) are all you need for all but maybe the last few civs, at which point you'll probably have Construction either from your own beeline or from extortion. Who cares WHAT he has, the moment you have Construction, it's all over for the AI. Collateral damage will kill even fortified longbows on hills, if you use enough cats, let alone muskets.

I usually play Monarch, but I played my first Emperor game today (Epic/Inland Sea) and am not impressed. In Civ 2 I could win on Deity using a variety of strats, or at least build some early wonders. In Civ IV thanks to the stupid distance and number of city maintenance penalties and big-time AI cheating, the only sure way to win is to rush rush rush. Anything else, short of a CS slingshot or something like that, is risky. I already know what's going to happen in my Emperor game: Conquest victory not long after I get cats. Oh, I'll probably lose a lot of cats against longbows in the process, but the AI is so terrible at warfare that it doesn't matter. BORING. I don't want new leaders and wonders and stuff in BtS; I want a decent AI that doesn't cheat so much so that you can do something other than rush/slingshot at higher difficulty levels.

Oh and, ditch the religion. Save yourself that early grief.

 

[Snaaty]

Well, I usually use a different style of play then most others... ...I´m more the peaceful builder kind and don´t like long and timeconsuming wars (because I haven´t that much free time and running around with 50+ catas can get boring pretty soon). Sometimes I even try to play without any wars (and building any troops) and try a peaceful space-race

Still, it works pretty good up to warlords 2.08 immortal (on vanilla 1.6 even deity) if you stick to this guideline:

- Research basic techs for landimprovements first
- Next is writing, alpha, lit
- Build a library in your second city ASAP, when writing is in (first GS should be in at around 1000 BC)
- Use the GS to build an academy in your capital
- When having gold/silver/diamonds/fur near your capital, you don´t need huts
- Else, build 4-5 huts for your capital
- Use your capital to build 3-4 decent cities early
- No huts except those near your capital (I prefere playing FE, because it´s more flexible then CE)
- Try to block off some backland territory with your first cities for later settlement
- Don´t open borders until CoL is in and backlands are settled
- After lit is in, research CoL next
- Don´t build any early wonders except the GL (takes too much time and slowes your expansion down). Only exception is when you have stone (= GW and pyramids)
- Build the GL NOT in your capital (you need your capital for doing heavy research)
- Build the NE in the city with the GL
- Use next GS to lightbulb phil
- Switch to pacifism ASAP
- Research CS
- Switch to bureau... ASAP (beefs up capital even more)
- Research paper
- After NE is in, set 2 additional GS to work in the city with the GL and the NE(=4 altogether)
- Use next GS on education
- Next on lib
- you should get lib on emperor at around 500 - 700 AD (immortal 400 - 600 AD, deity 150 - 300 AD) to be first, when civs like Ghandi are around
- pick astro as freebee and engage in the spacerace (try to keep out of any wars)

OR

- pick nationalism as freebee
- build the globe
- Build maybe 15-20 harchers when lib is in
- switch to castesystem when lib is in
- set MANY merchants to work
- get a GM (to finance upgrading the harchers)
- draft macemen/muskets in the city with the globe (maybe 10)
- build 4-6 trebs
- beeline miltrad
- upgrade harchers immediately when you have miltrad
- run down 2-3 of your neighbours with early cav within 30 turns (you will lose some cavs, but who cares, simply whip some replacements)
- KILL THE TECHCLUB FIRST when they are in reach (they will have rifles on emperor at around 1300 AD, immortal 1100 AD, deity 900 AD)
- After that, you should have enough land to compete with all remaining civs and can go domination later

...

The trick is, to use many GP, but to control which GP´s you get and when

 

[Dirk1302]

Why not build GL in your capital Snaaty? I don't see how this kills research, usually i build GL, NE and Oxford in the capital.

 

[axident]

Well, I usually use a different style of play then most others... ...I´m more the peaceful builder kind and don´t like long and timeconsuming wars (because I haven´t that much free time and running around with 50+ catas can get boring pretty soon). Sometimes I even try to play without any wars (and building any troops) and try a peaceful space-race

Still, it works pretty good up to warlords 2.08 immortal (on vanilla 1.6 even deity) if you stick to this guideline:

- Research basic techs for landimprovements first
- Next is writing, alpha, lit
- Build a library in your second city ASAP, when writing is in (first GS should be in at around 1000 BC)
- Use the GS to build an academy in your capital
- When having gold/silver/diamonds/fur near your capital, you don´t need huts
- Else, build 4-5 huts for your capital
- Use your capital to build 3-4 decent cities early
- No huts except those near your capital (I prefere playing FE, because it´s more flexible then CE)
- Try to block off some backland territory with your first cities for later settlement
- Don´t open borders until CoL is in and backlands are settled
- After lit is in, research CoL next
- Don´t build any early wonders except the GL (takes too much time and slowes your expansion down). Only exception is when you have stone (= GW and pyramids)
- Build the GL NOT in your capital (you need your capital for doing heavy research)
- Build the NE in the city with the GL
- Use next GS to lightbulb phil
- Switch to pacifism ASAP
- Research CS
- Switch to bureau... ASAP (beefs up capital even more)
- Research paper
- After NE is in, set 2 additional GS to work in the city with the GL and the NE(=4 altogether)
- Use next GS on education
- Next on lib
- you should get lib on emperor at around 500 - 700 AD (immortal 400 - 600 AD, deity 150 - 300 AD) to be first, when civs like Ghandi are around
- pick astro as freebee and engage in the spacerace (try to keep out of any wars)

OR

- pick nationalism as freebee
- build the globe
- Build maybe 15-20 harchers when lib is in
- switch to castesystem when lib is in
- set MANY merchants to work
- get a GM (to finance upgrading the harchers)
- draft macemen/muskets in the city with the globe (maybe 10)
- build 4-6 trebs
- beeline miltrad
- upgrade harchers immediately when you have miltrad
- run down 2-3 of your neighbours with early cav within 30 turns (you will lose some cavs, but who cares, simply whip some replacements)
- KILL THE TECHCLUB FIRST when they are in reach (they will have rifles on emperor at around 1300 AD, immortal 1100 AD, deity 900 AD)
- After that, you should have enough land to compete with all remaining civs and can go domination later

...

The trick is, to use many GP, but to control which GP´s you get and when

Impressive if you can win consistently with that spacerace strat, no reloads, on Immortal Warlords 2.08. I also think that the GL should be in the capital; not sure why you don't think so. Unless you meant Great Lighthouse but I really doubt it.

 

[Snaaty]

GL = Great Library

The problem with building it is, that it requires about 15 - 20 turns (including chopping). After the GL, you need the NE next, to max. out the profit of getting GP´s, so you need another 15 turns, what summs up to 35 turns.

During this time, you cannot work cottages to keep up in research when building it in capital, so it´s better to build it not in capital but in another town (I came across this by accident and, because I didn´t belive it at first myself, did some testruns... ...it saves you about 10 - 15 turns in the lib race on average... ...once bureau... is in, the bonus of early worked cottages is quite huge)

When you have some goldmines near your capital, then it´s something different (gold = production AND research, no cottages needed at all), but then you depend on luck again

@ axident:

I used this tactics in the 3 open game here in the strat forum (was immortal I think), even with Monty as neighbour... ...diplo is the thing that brings down the AI very efficient when playing peacefull

@ Dirk:

You can only build NE or Oxford in capital, because palace counts as national wonder (if I´m not mistaken), so another advantage of not building GL and NE in capital is, that you can build Oxford later in capital

 

[Sjaramei]

GL = Great Library
You can only build NE or Oxford in capital, because palace counts as national wonder (if I´m not mistaken), so another advantage of not building GL and NE in capital is, that you can build Oxford later in capital

Palace isn't a national wonder. I sometimes do heroic epic/ironworks in capital.

- Build a library in your second city ASAP, when writing is in (first GS should be in at around 1000 BC)

1000 BC? i rarely play philosophical leaders, is this possible without one?

Sounds like you need to concentrate more on your economic development after the first rush, because your maces seem to be coming in very late.

I've had maces for several hundred years at that point, and as i said i was only a couple of techs away from Grenadiers/cannons. But i didn't like that he had all those techs (except steel) so fast
My economy is usually strong at that point, but they tech trade in between so much it's not funny and i hit that crappy tech WFYABTA when i try to catch up. (maybe i do some wrong trades which speeds the AI teching?)

Just keep rushing, if you are playing freaking pangaea at Epic speed. Swordsmen (and maybe a few spears and axes for D) are all you need for all but maybe the last few civs, at which point you'll probably have Construction either from your own beeline or from extortion. Who cares WHAT he has, the moment you have Construction, it's all over for the AI. Collateral damage will kill even fortified longbows on hills, if you use enough cats, let alone muskets.

I usually play Monarch, but I played my first Emperor game today (Epic/Inland Sea) and am not impressed. In Civ 2 I could win on Deity using a variety of strats, or at least build some early wonders. In Civ IV thanks to the stupid distance and number of city maintenance penalties and big-time AI cheating, the only sure way to win is to rush rush rush. Anything else, short of a CS slingshot or something like that, is risky. I already know what's going to happen in my Emperor game: Conquest victory not long after I get cats. Oh, I'll probably lose a lot of cats against longbows in the process, but the AI is so terrible at warfare that it doesn't matter. BORING. I don't want new leaders and wonders and stuff in BtS; I want a decent AI that doesn't cheat so much so that you can do something other than rush/slingshot at higher difficulty levels.

Oh and, ditch the religion. Save yourself that early grief.

All out military isn't my thing (i've done some catarushes vs superior units before, it's a joke) And you didn't say map size, small is easier compared to standard. (and upwards of course) Regardless i would like to see a save where you perform this feat at emperor difficulty at a standard map size. The AI isn't as pushover as on monarch. (Genghis and the kind get crazy amount of units after a while)

And some good points in your loooong post Snaaty, i tend to do alot of them. But founding 5 cities is usually impossible for me since the AI tend to start close to me cause of start loc bug in this patch. I usually end up with 4 and capture a couple of others from a poor neighbour.

I've never actually used pacifism, maybe i should try it more often
(but as i said GP is my bad thing ) But thanks for the help, i think i will do a bit better now

 

[axident]

Palace isn't a national wonder. I sometimes do heroic epic/ironworks in capital.


1000 BC? i rarely play philosophical leaders, is this possible without one?



I've had maces for several hundred years at that point, and as i said i was only a couple of techs away from Grenadiers/cannons. But i didn't like that he had all those techs (except steel) so fast
My economy is usually strong at that point, but they tech trade in between so much it's not funny and i hit that crappy tech WFYABTA when i try to catch up. (maybe i do some wrong trades which speeds the AI teching?)



All out military isn't my thing (i've done some catarushes vs superior units before, it's a joke) And you didn't say map size, small is easier compared to standard. (and upwards of course) Regardless i would like to see a save where you perform this feat at emperor difficulty at a standard map size. The AI isn't as pushover as on monarch. (Genghis and the kind get crazy amount of units after a while)

And some good points in your loooong post Snaaty, i tend to do alot of them. But founding 5 cities is usually impossible for me since the AI tend to start close to me cause of start loc bug in this patch. I usually end up with 4 and capture a couple of others from a poor neighbour.

I've never actually used pacifism, maybe i should try it more often
(but as i said GP is my bad thing ) But thanks for the help, i think i will do a bit better now

I play Standard only, though sometimes I play small with low sea levels. I'd play larger but my computer already gets bogged down with Standard after a while as it is. I also go with 8 players total (myself included) on Inland Sea sometimes. I split between normal and epic game speed, no real preference either way. And after I wrote that post, I continued to plow into the enemy. Yes, the AI is a pushover when it comes to war. It sucks so badly that it needs extra units and tech at the beginning just to stave off defeat a little longer. I've basically sealed off Saladin and am marching my way around the other way. Cathy gave me four techs and gold after I took her from first place to last. (Fred was much stingier, though Hamburg did change hands no fewer than three times, so Fred probably registered that as a push. I had to evacuate his Hamburg when right after I barely was able to conquer it, a barb axeman showed up; Fred then immediately took it back from the barbs, and then I took it from Fred again. Hamburg was Holy else I would have razed the damn thing.) Next up is Ghandi, who somehow researched Construction but doesn't yet have Feudalism. And I'm winning the race to Liberalism while all of this is going on, though Wang Kon is pretty much right there with me and I hope someone attacks him soon; maybe I'll do it myself but I'd rather bribe someone else to do it. I'm even on good terms with everyone except Cathy and Fred. Fred is cautious with me after I donated all my techs to him to encourage him to research something good so I can take it from him when I finish him off. Cathy is metalless and I will finish her off when the time is right.

By the way did I mention how stupid and manipulable the AI is? I know I did, but I want to add: Cathy demanded tribute, I refused, I figured she'd DoW on me (her hands were full) so I DoW her. Turns out that her hands were full because she intended to build a stack to attack a barb town. Several turns into my war with her, a stack heads in the direction of ex-Germany, so I chase after it only to see it veer off to a barb town, so I wait till that stack takes the barb town, then I attack it and kill the weakened stack and get gold to boot. Then there is the stupid AI attacking weaker units out in the field that I purposely dangle in front of it, instead of holing up in the city.

Cats vs superior units = a joke how? You wrote a very ambiguous sentence there. Obviously you don't want to still be using cats if the enemy has anything better than muskets, but by then you'll have trebs or better. I've had to use to cats against hilltop fortified longbows before, all Protective, with the top one a CG3 First Strike longbow. Not pleasant and I had to use a CR III swordsman to injure that stupid unit before sending in the cats. No maces, nothing better than swords. They all die anyway. Cats ftw.

I don't like pacifism as it requires having a religion in order to work. Religion = diplo pain.

 

[Sjaramei]

Cats vs superior units = a joke how? You wrote a very ambiguous sentence there. Obviously you don't want to still be using cats if the enemy has anything better than muskets, but by then you'll have trebs or better. I've had to use to cats against hilltop fortified longbows before, all Protective, with the top one a CG3 First Strike longbow. Not pleasant and I had to use a CR III swordsman to injure that stupid unit before sending in the cats. No maces, nothing better than swords. They all die anyway. Cats ftw.

I've done rifles in a city with a huge enough stack of catas/maces on monarch. That is stupid from my point of view.

 

[Dirk1302]

GL = Great Library

The problem with building it is, that it requires about 15 - 20 turns (including chopping). After the GL, you need the NE next, to max. out the profit of getting GP´s, so you need another 15 turns, what summs up to 35 turns.

During this time, you cannot work cottages to keep up in research when building it in capital, so it´s better to build it not in capital but in another town (I came across this by accident and, because I didn´t belive it at first myself, did some testruns... ...it saves you about 10 - 15 turns in the lib race on average... ...once bureau... is in, the bonus of early worked cottages is quite huge)

When you have some goldmines near your capital, then it´s something different (gold = production AND research, no cottages needed at all), but then you depend on luck again

@ axident:

I used this tactics in the 3 open game here in the strat forum (was immortal I think), even with Monty as neighbour... ...diplo is the thing that brings down the AI very efficient when playing peacefull

@ Dirk:

You can only build NE or Oxford in capital, because palace counts as national wonder (if I´m not mistaken), so another advantage of not building GL and NE in capital is, that you can build Oxford later in capital

No Palace doesn't count as a national wonder and you can build Oxford and Ne in capital. As for working cottages, i keep on working them while chopping for GL and NE. I can see one advantage to building GL in another city: Chop all forests in capital early and cottage everything here using HR to grow capital quite large early. In this case you have to build GL somewhere else. But if i'm not mistaken you cottage only 4-5 tiles around capital?

 

[Ecofarm]

Regarding religion. I don't use it unless...

Build monestaries in 2 cities, and temple/SH/Oracle = shrine in capital. Missionary rush!

I find Rabbi rushes the most effective unless a krishna charge or monk blitz are available and have spread. I've heard of rushing with nuns (could be a rumor), but I think that would be too late for many converts (sexy/monte python nuns notwithstanding). Conversion via open borders is easy without state religion. 1 missionary is enough in a civ without a founding city, a second missionary in cap almost insures a game-long ally. After 1-3 civs are your religion, take it as state religion and bribe others into war. Use pacifism to win liberal_race, and they will stay your religion long time.

A second shrine is a waste, even if CoL --> Pacifism --> Liberal means that you found confusion and towlism.

 

[NKVD]

i now play without tech trading because the AI trades so much for nothing.

 

[cabert]

i now play without tech trading because the AI trades so much for nothing.

2 things :
- If you manage to win at emperor level without tech trading, I'll bow in front of you
- tech trading is a very fun part of the game

 

[axident]

2 things :
- If you manage to win at emperor level without tech trading, I'll bow in front of you
- tech trading is a very fun part of the game

Amen. Pointy stick research, anyone? Also, bribing an AI with a tech to attack your main rival = priceless.

 

[Sjaramei]

2 things :
- If you manage to win at emperor level without tech trading, I'll bow in front of you
- tech trading is a very fun part of the game

Tech trading off makes it easier i think? It did at monarch at least. I'm pretty sure it will be easier then. AI's trade between themselves so cheap, it's a pretty big disadvantage for them to have tech trading off.

 

[economiser]

The tech cartel must be broken up!

The good thing is that since they're usually pacifists, and the AI is stupid at war, you can usually overwhelm even the most advanced civ as long as you have seige units.

The key is to go after the strongest one you can reach and beat it down mercilessly with massive amounts of cats or trebs. As Axident said, cats can even take out fortified longbows on hills.

Also, if you can somehow bribe one of the maniacs (Monty, Alex, Genghis, or Ragnar) into fighting the tech club, you can keep your economy rolling.