How to get caught up if behind on tech?

[RedChief]

Just a quick note first. I'm a returning Civ3 player. Returning in this case would be my last login to these forums prior to this week was in 2002. Steam and their deals sucked me back in.

So I'm playing on a Pangae map as the persians. While I'm in no danger of being attacked, I've found myself way behind on tech, yet I've been doing everything I can to keep up. I made 2 mistakes early on. Not going for Literature (for Libs) before Republic and I didn't mine enough plains so my cities took longer to build. I'm now 8 techs sort of the Modern age and my loyal allies (Korean allies best allies) are already have Mech Infant (but they have no coal for railroads).

I've attached the savegame. Any suggestions on what I could do better?

 

[vmxa]

Normally one does not mine plains. They only have 1 food, irrigation is used. Later, once you have rails then you often can mine a plains or two as you have enough food.

It is hard to say going for Rep, before Lit is a mistake. Usually I want to switch quickly. Lit can wait a bit as making libs early in the game is going to take a lot of turns and not pay off right away.

Given the game is in modern age in 1685AD, many things must have been done pretty well. I will try to take a look at the save and see if I can offer any ideas.

 

[vmxa]

RedChief I see that all nations are still in the game, even though it is in the modern age. This means you have not taken much land from your neighbors. I see why, you do not have any troops, 15 or so.

You are in Demo, so you are even paying for support of workers. There is no reason to be in Demo and run 40/40/20.

Why would you trade Iron to Korea, they would have to be the target. You are paying about 30% of your total income in maint. This suggest you have way too many structures.

How did you let Korea get two towns in your backyard?

You still have many tiles with trees and never been improved,not even a road.

I see some mountains have mines and not a one is being worked?

You need to focus from the start. Understand you have to have more land and it can only come via force. So you either have to plan on a peaceful win or get aggressive.

You cannot even be put up for a vote unless you are the second largest or have the UN. Summeria has the UN, right now they have wars. They also have Manhatten Project. So you can expect there will not be a vote.

One of the reason you want to get large is to try to ensure you have the resources and lux you need.

I advocate not researching optional techs, unless they are critical. Demo is not one of those techs. Take a look for a training SG on Monarch level. There is a thread that has training games.

See how they progress, looking for one that is not an Always War game. I think TR01 was one such game. Even if you want to win by vote, you need troops. Even if you want to win by space you need troops.

Otherwise someone will decide your land would look better under their control.

 

[RedChief]

RedChief I see that all nations are still in the game, even though it is in the modern age. This means you have not taken much land form your neighbors. I see why, you do not have any troops, 15 or so.

You are in Demo, so you are even paying for support of workers. There is no reason to be in Demo and run 40/40/20.

What would be better here? Republic or Communism?

Why would you trade Iron to Korea, they would have to be the target. You are paying about 30% of your total income in maint. This suggest you have way too many structures.

At this point in the game, Iron is less a resource factor and I was able to make a buck off it.

How did you let Korea get two towns in your backyard?

During the initial expansion, I found I had no luxuries so I had to make a run for spices in the east and needed to make a run for Horses in the south. Therefore I needed to fill in the gaps between these cities first before going north. By then, the Koreans had already grabbed some land there.

Even later in the game, the only way I was able to get Coal was by doing a city creep.

You still have many tiles with trees and never been improved,not even a road.

I see some mountains have mines and not a one is being worked?

You need to focus from the start. Understand you have to have more land and it can only come via force. So you either have to plan on a peaceful win or get aggressive.

You cannot even be put up for a vote unless you are the second largest or have the UN. Summeria has the UN, right now they have wars. They also have Manhatten Project. So you can expect there will not be a vote.

One of the reason you want to get large is to try to ensure you have the resources and lux you need.

I advocate not researching optional techs, unless they are critical. Demo is not one of those techs. Take a look for a training SG on Monarch level. There is a thread that has training games.

See how they progress, looking for one that is not an Always War game. I think TR01 was one such game. Even if you want to win by vote, you need troops. Even if you want to win by space you need troops.

Otherwise someone will decide your land would look better under their control.

I think I missed my chance to take land by force. Carthage got the bulk of the resources (rubber, coal, luxuries) and they were behind in tech for a while. Now they have tanks and I'm still w/ Calvary for offense.

 

[vmxa]

"RedChief"
"What would be better here? Republic or Communism?"

I am not sure how to respond. Let me put it in context. At this point it does not matter. You want to stay number 2 and try to get a UN to win. That means making friends.

My position on communism is that it is an optional tech that comes too late for me to research or use. I will go with Republic, unless I see I am going to fight most of the game.

Not only do I not want to research an optional tech, I do not want to revolt a second time.

"At this point in the game, Iron is less a resource factor and I was able to make a buck off it."

They cannot make rails without iron. IF I do trade it, I want to time it with a little lead for a vote. They come up every 11 turns. Remember a few bucks will not save your neck.

"During the initial expansion, I found I had no luxuries so I had to make a run for spices in the east and needed to make a run for Horses in the south. Therefore I needed to fill in the gaps between these cities first before going north. By then, the Koreans had already grabbed some land there."

I always tell players to not over extent to get a lux or a resource, UNLESS it is critical. That means I am going to get eliminate without it right now. I view them as mine and I will have them in due time.

I do not want to have anyone behind me, that makes me nervous. Those locations were pretty close to the start location iirc, so they should not have been hard to fill.

"I think I missed my chance to take land by force. Carthage got the bulk of the resources (rubber, coal, luxuries) and they were behind in tech for a while. Now they have tanks and I'm still w/ Calvary for offense."

Yes it is too late for that now. Best shot is to make friends, hope for a vote.

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome back, RedChief!

 

[Lanzelot]

Join Date: Jan 2002
First Post: Jun 01, 2010

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Welcome back to the game, RedChief!

I looked a bit at the .sav, and in general it looks like you know how to play civ: you developed reasonably well, stayed out of trouble for the entire game and more or less kept pace with the AI. (Well, a couple of techs behind isn't that critical.)

However it looks like you "just played on without any plan". The game "lacks focus". vmxa already pointed out the shortcomings. (You "over-developed" on the city improvement side and neglected the army.) It appears you played this game quite peacefully. vmxa said you should have grabbed more land by force earlier. That would certainly have made things easier, but I think one of the beauties of Civ3 is that you don't necessarily have to be a warmonger in order to win. It is well possible to win a game in the completely peaceful mode that you applied to the current game. However, this is possible, only if you have a decent plan!

For example 20K is a victory condition that could easily be achieved in the type of game you played here. But for this you would have had to concentrate on one culture-rich city right from the start. That was not the case, so that victory type is no longer possible at this point.
For 100K you don't have enough cities.
And similarly, if you had wanted to go for a UN victory, you should have concentrated on getting the UN, before Sumer got it. On Monarch and with the nice productive cities you have this should have been possible, if you plan ahead and start a pre-built on time.

So my general advice would be: read a bit on the Military Academy, in the Strategy, GOTM and Succession Game forums and then try a new game, where you try to concentrate on a victory condition from quite early on. (Doesn't need to be from turn 1 on. Usually I play the initial phase, explore my land, evaluate my neighbors, assess my traits and UU and the resources I have at my disposal and then it's time to decide on an appropriate victory condition and follow up on it with focus.)

Advice for the current game:
First of all stay in Democracy! It's the perfect government for the type of empire you have built so far. No need to go through another long-drawn anarchy.
Check your cities and see, whether you can sell unnecessary improvements in some of them. I think you can also get some money by selling wines to Korea.
Next try to update your military. Research asap towards tanks. Replace you outdated units with Infantry. (Don't remember, if you have rubber?! If not, try to buy it. Taking it by force is probably impossible with your weak millitary.)

These are the necessary steps to stay alive/competitive. However, it won't lead to a win yet... So how might a win still be achieved?

vmxa already mentioned UN victory, but I think the Sumerians will never triggger a vote, so you would need to capture their UN city and hold it for long enough to win the vote. This might be tough to pull off considering your weak millitary and the fact that it's Pangea, so that Sumer can strike back at your own core immediately. (Might be possible, if you manage to sign MAs with the rest of the nations, so that the Sumerian units will need several turns before they can reach your cities. But then they will throw everything at the UN town you captured. So you need to capture it right the turn before the next vote will be held, and then have enough artillery/bombers to destroy all roads around it to keep the Sumerian army away for at least 1 turn. Perhaps one of the old legends like SirPleb might be able to pull this off from the current position, but it's probably unrealistic for you?!)

Next idea is the spaceship victory. However, you are a bit behind in tech, so that won't be easy as well. (Probably missed a couple of trading opportunities early, because usually be the IA you should be ahead of the AI, especially as a scientific civ?!) It might still be possible, though, because the AI is not particularly good at launching he spaceship... Try to get the research time down to 4 turns. Should be possible with 60% research and getting money from Korea for the wines?! Omit the optionals. When you enter the MA, you get a free tech thanks to being scientific. Hopefully you can trade that around to get 1 or 2 of the other first tier tech. Then try to always research a monopoly tech and trade it for as many techs as possible.
Also you need to make a list of all SS parts and start pre-builds for them now (or in a couple turns), so that you can finish each part right when the corresponding tech comes in. That way you can beat the AI. (They usually start building each part from scratch, after the tech is available and when the next city finishes its current project.)
Here resources (uranium/aluminium) might be a problem. If you don't have them and can't trade for them, you will need combat settlers and lots of Mech Inf. Wait until all techs are there and all pre-builds are "ripe" and then move the settlers in place, declare war, settle on the resources, rush an airport and hope to survive to the next turn...

And perhaps a millitary victory is still possible: work on your tanks, then try to get a "global coalition" going against one selected target. (If Sumer is already close to 100K culture or to launching the SS or to domination victory, Sumer would be the obvious first target. Otherwise pick the weakest one.) The other AIs should do the major fighting, but make sure to get a couple of key cities to increase your power. After the first target is gone, repeat with the next one. Repeat until you are strong enough to take on an enemy on your own.
What makes this plan feasable is the fact that they won't get any new units from "Future Tech". So even though at the moment you are behind, they can't get further ahead, once they get Modern Armor. So you just wait until you have Modern Armor as well, and then you are on even terms again... Only danger is, if someone hits a victory condition, before you get to Modern Armor. (For the first campaigns, where you are not doing major fighting, it may be sufficient to have tanks, Mech Inf, artillery & Bombers. But make sure to avoid losses! Otherwise war weariness will soon get a problem in Democracy. (See Moonsinger's article on how to wage war under Democracy in that case.)
Lanzelot

 

[vmxa]

I think it is fair to say that when you still do not have RP and they have Mech Inf, you are not just a little behind. You are far behind. Consider the amount of beakers being put up, not going to catch up either.

Tech get ever more expensive, where are the extra beakers going to come from, not trades. The town Korea had should have been filled, before they got there and no force would be required.

If you wanted more land than is currently in the empire (pretend you did get the korean towns first), now how are you going to be larger? Giving the size he is now and again pretend he expanded faster and owned the land those two towns are on, that is still not enough.

To win by peace, you cannot afford to fall behind in tech after you are well into the middle ages. You have to be able to keep them from going after you and more important you need to be a tech trader. You do not need to make war, but at least prevent being attack and doing some damage, if that failed.

You need to be on good terms and that is best done with trades. Otherwise may as well go OCC and then it is easier to stay on good terms.

iirc he does not know RP, so no infantry nor knowledge of rubber. I would agree that the chances of a UN vote are very slim. The AI is not going to call a vote with so many nation be at war with him. It is just an outside shot.