How to make the most out of peace agreements

[t10000]

Have started a game on difficulty emperor and from my earlier experience the on Regent the AI has kicked up a notch.

Even though i thought i got a pretty good start and manage to get 2 techs from huts the AI non the less outran me in techs after awhile trying to keep up with high science slider i decided instead going for a lone scientist and buying/taking what i want instead.

Did a bit of mobilization and manage to gather enough immortals to crush portugals spearman defence. (Even though he finnished the great wall 2 turns before i started my invasion).

The main reason for me starting this war was to catch up in techs as it were to expensive to buy everything from the other civs.

Portugal first offer currency for peace after i took Lagos and (razed due to 1 pop) another city, but as I thought i wanted more of the 6 techs they were ahead of me and that I could easily take their capital made me refuse the offer. Now i have just taking their Capital for the second time. Proposing and see what they might offer for peace this time. And manage to get 3 techs at least. Currency, Code of Laws and litterature.

But is this really all could get? Does I have to wait until 20 turns runs out. Make a new strike and then demand the rest? Or is some way to squeeze out all their techs now?

At this time i don't want to hurt my reputation so i guessing to brake this 20 turns peace agreements also will be very bad for me.

Posting a save so can you see the situation for yourself.

 

[vmxa]

Too late to have a look, but yes you would ruin your rep. Emo gets a 20%, that makes them look better than Regent. They AI is the same though.

If you have huts at Emp you can expect the AI to race through the AA on a pan map or a large continent where they have contacts. No need to panic, if you have good land and manage it well, read workers.

The problem with Persia is using the Immortals, means early GA. Not using them means, they are not all that special in C3C as everyone will have MDI soon.

 

[t10000]

Is there any bonus for eliminating another civ?
What happens with techs that they have that I don't, do you get them or are they lost with that civ?

 

[MysteryX]

Is there any bonus for eliminating another civ?
What happens with techs that they have that I don't, do you get them or are they lost with that civ?

No real bonus for eliminating another civilization. You do get all the gold it has left (just like you get a piece of the treasury for every opponent's city you take), which is probably not much left when it's down to one city. You don't get their technology or anything like that, if they had something no one else had, it's gone until someone else researches it.

Of course, if you are playing a game with an elimination-win goal, every civilization you eliminate brings you one step closer to that goal.

There's no real detriment to wiping out a civilization either- as far as I know, it doesn't harm your reputation with other civilizations. Though perhaps the fewer opponents you have left, the more likely one of them is going to randomly declare war on you rather than declaring war on someone else.

 

[MysteryX]

Actually, one advantage to eliminating a civilization comes to mind, if one is working on a diplomatic win (or denying a diplomatic win). Eliminating the civilization prevents it from voting against you at the U.N. If you whip a civilization around and then leave it lingering, you can probably count on it to never vote for you in a U.N. vote, but it may vote for one of your opponents. Sometimes the clearest path to a diplomatic win is eliminating all the civilizations that will not vote for you.

 

[t10000]

Have been occupied with some other stuffs but picked up my first game on emperor agian, and it going fairly well, at least i think. Even if it a bit stepping up from Regent.

Although it doesn't really seem to matter how much i research i just getting behind in techs anyway. So right now I'm going a lone scientist. Try to buy and get away with my techs in peace agreement instead.

Also have a little time of peace in what will be a last landgrabbing phase, (when i wiped out portugal there where some extra free space, but have many interests now) and to grow my towns to cities, to get more free unit support.

What concerns me though is:

I figured out that i will need a 2nd core as the corruption is enormous in the cities that are not close to the capital. I can't really decided where to put my Forbidden Palace though. I dont really have a specific 2nd core and dont know how to think when try to get the most out of it.

I also starting to getting some more unit support due to growing towns but it still costs me a fairly high amount of gold per turn. Is it worth or should I disband more units? I have already got rid of my warrios....

Attach a save and would be grateful if someone would like to take a look

 

[Theov]

The logical place for the FP would be Ergili, Dakyanus or Borazjan. Somewhere where many cities are clustered and are potentially productive.
My first 2 thoughts when looking at the game were about workers and city placement.
You have 17 workers on 34 cities. You should at least double the number of workers. Workers working in groups of 2 is most efficient (any worker after that also speeds up the process, but less).
Your city placement is quite loose. There are many thoughts on this, so I won't go in length about this. I prefer to have some more room on one side of the city and less room on the other side.
Yes, the unit support is better with larger cities, but for now, you should concentrate on getting workers and improving your land.
You can prepare a war to get that Zulu city Zungiun (in the east of your land) and ally with the Aztecs and use them as a buffer.
There are some of your immortals roaming around far away from your cities, you can start with getting them back into action.

You're building all these Libraries, seems like a waste if you're not doing any research. If you're building them for culture, you can chop forests for some quick temples too. You also don't need many harbors early game.

Did you just get out of war with the English? Next time try to get some other civs into it. Why did the war end?

ps. Where is that last Portugal City?!
pps. I turned on Color blind help and 'Ask for build orders after unit construction' at the preferences...

View attachment Xerxes of the Persians, 480 AD.SAV

This is at 480AD. I'm at war with Egypt (with the Aztecs) because the egyptians had a settler walking through the land... and with the Zululanders because I wanted that city. I think I will pull in the aztecs just when the zululandians are walking through their territory.

 

[t10000]

Thansk for the advice, little thoughts of what you commented on:

The logical place for the FP would be Ergili, Dakyanus or Borazjan. Somewhere where many cities are clustered and are potentially productive.
My first 2 thoughts when looking at the game were about workers and city placement.
You have 17 workers on 34 cities. You should at least double the number of workers. Workers working in groups of 2 is most efficient (any worker after that also speeds up the process, but less).

Yea you just get a 2nd core and then everything not in one of these cores will be corrupted as hell. I was somewhat thinking i could place the 2nd core to get the lift some of the land in between from some corruption. But the probably is more than you can accomplish with a FP.

Your city placement is quite loose. There are many thoughts on this, so I won't go in length about this. I prefer to have some more room on one side of the city and less room on the other side.

Thinking about expanding a little inwards placing some cities to filling the gaps a little, so you are probably have a good point here too.

Yes, the unit support is better with larger cities, but for now, you should concentrate on getting workers and improving your land.

Alright even though i get +3 unit support for advancing which means +6 per turn. Should I've disbanded some units or it is a price to pay to be able to wage war properly. But yea more workers it is, the main reason i haven't really bursted out more workers is beacause I'm already over the free unit support.

You can prepare a war to get that Zulu city Zungiun (in the east of your land) and ally with the Aztecs and use them as a buffer.
There are some of your immortals roaming around far away from your cities, you can start with getting them back into action.

Yea was thinking the same about that city, hadn't not decided when to declare and take it though. And about the immortals roaming around far away it was one attempt to explore more of the map and try to meet the last civs. Probably not worth it i guess.

You're building all these Libraries, seems like a waste if you're not doing any research. If you're building them for culture, you can chop forests for some quick temples too. You also don't need many harbors early game.

Yea building them for culture. Did really not build any culture at all in the beginning and now when I have a little peaceful landgrabbing phase i figured i could get some. Libraries just beacause I'm scientific and they are half price, but I agree the bonus from the temples would suit me better.

Did you just get out of war with the English? Next time try to get some other civs into it. Why did the war end?

Yea was taking a couple of towns and was advancing pretty succesfully but then english knights starting to popup and attacking my troops and fled when counterattacked, so made peace and try to get some techs, (they hade both feudalism and chivalry that I hadn't) Bought feudalism from Korea and got chivalry from the english for peace and 12 gpt.

Probably i should just have continued to advance as it was not than many knights they had afterall. And tried to get more civs into the war.

ps. Where is that last Portugal City?!

Portugal was eliminated and I don't know where they respawned.

pps. I turned on Color blind help and 'Ask for build orders after unit construction' at the preferences...

What is that?

View attachment 295556

This is at 480AD. I'm at war with Egypt (with the Aztecs) because the egyptians had a settler walking through the land... and with the Zululanders because I wanted that city. I think I will pull in the aztecs just when the zululandians are walking through their territory.

Interesting i would definetly take a look at this

 

[Theov]

Thansk for the advice, little thoughts of what you commented on:

No problemo. I like the game, I'm playing it now too, I'll try not to give spoilers.

Yea you just get a 2nd core and then everything not in one of these cores will be corrupted as hell. I was somewhat thinking i could place the 2nd core to get the lift some of the land in between from some corruption. But the probably is more than you can accomplish with a FP.

sorry what?

Thinking about expanding a little inwards placing some cities to filling the gaps a little, so you are probably have a good point here too.

my rule of thumb is that if the city on one place has 3 tiles to work, then on the other side it can have 2 tiles. But it depends on how much food, the terrain and where the rivers are.

Alright even though i get +3 unit support for advancing which means +6 per turn. Should I've disbanded some units or it is a price to pay to be able to wage war properly. But yea more workers it is, the main reason i haven't really bursted out more workers is beacause I'm already over the free unit support.

don't worry about unit support.
[/old karate teacher voice]Improved land leads to food, food leads to more people, more people leads to unit support.[old karate teacher voice]
It's not the other way around. You need units for your wars and defense too. Maybe you don't need the ships and disbanding is weird, why not use the units to capture a city and in that way up your unit support .

Yea was thinking the same about that city, hadn't not decided when to declare and take it though. And about the immortals roaming around far away it was one attempt to explore more of the map and try to meet the last civs. Probably not worth it i guess.

Zulunians are far away, only if they build ships, they are a danger, but keep em occupied with the aztecs and they won't be a problem. I love it when far away countries give me cities like that.

Yea building them for culture. Did really not build any culture at all in the beginning and now when I have a little peaceful landgrabbing phase i figured i could get some. Libraries just beacause I'm scientific and they are half price, but I agree the bonus from the temples would suit me better.

yeah maybe libs are better than temples after all. Happiness can be reached with some lux and trading for lux...

Yea was taking a couple of towns and was advancing pretty succesfully but then english knights starting to popup and attacking my troops and fled when counterattacked, so made peace and try to get some techs, (they hade both feudalism and chivalry that I hadn't) Bought feudalism from Korea and got chivalry from the english for peace and 12 gpt.

Probably i should just have continued to advance as it was not than many knights they had afterall. And tried to get more civs into the war.

hm ok. I will be their turn later on MHUUWWHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Portugal was eliminated and I don't know where they respawned.

Ah, I see now... they are not yet eliminated.

What is that?

Color blind help gives you some extra text on screen, like the nationality of the cities etc.
The other one asks you for what to build next, you can find them at top left button, under preferences.
It's just that I don't want the AI to build anything without asking me first.

Interesting i would definetly take a look at this

 

[t10000]

No problemo. I like the game, I'm playing it now too, I'll try not to give spoilers.

sorry what?

Im just getting greedy, as if you somehow you could place your 2nd core so that the cities between the cores would be half productive as well. But i guess the corruption goes out of control so fast when you increase the distance to your palaces that it's not really worth taking into account when placing the fp.

don't worry about unit support.
[/old karate teacher voice]Improved land leads to food, food leads to more people, more people leads to unit support.[old karate teacher voice]
It's not the other way around. You need units for your wars and defense too. Maybe you don't need the ships and disbanding is weird, why not use the units to capture a city and in that way up your unit support .

Sounds reasonable

 

[t10000]

Had some progress going myself too, peaceful one though. Stopping at 480 AD to be able to compare.

See now that I'm seem to take a reputation hit so this save would be useless.
Damn must have been portugal asking for peace and didnt pay any attention so gave it to them. Had a alliance with england who was at war with them so probably ruined my rep. there.

 

[Theov]

I replaced my old computer with another less old one... so I haven't played.
How far are you? Found the Portugesians yet?

 

[t10000]

Get a little pissed over that rep hit and been occupied myself so just started a new playing session and back to 480 AD again but without any rep. hit this time.

 

[t10000]

Here comes another update. Haven't got very far though since last. Besides that i play very slowly I think double check that i done my turn just as I want, even keep a save and go and hunt down some sidetrack that is bothering me just to see how that will went out, before i get back to the maingame. Also the summerweather have been demanding it's attention.

Well since last time, i had first a bit of period of peace before deciding to strike at england again. Done pretty okay, they have signed up military alliances with both summerians zululand and russians against me. 3 biggest threat maybee but also far away. Well kinda forced me to take out their little cities on my continent (actually just 1 continent, pangea map). So now they are stuck on land an invasion from sea.

Have signed MP with both aztecs and egyptians in response, which lies between me and those other foes, will serve as cannonfodder at least.

Have started to some research of my own, start to get use of all these libraries. Have bought a couple more techs, manage to research some. And in the peace agreements with England which will last for 20 turns before i take them out for good. I got Chemistry and economics for 500 gold and 61 gpt. Economics i dont have that much use for now but managed to with some additionally gold buy democracy. Which leaves me just 1 tech behind the tech leaders now. (metallurgy)
War weariness started to become a problem as well.

Things are going pretty well I think haven't decided where to put my attention when I'm done with England though.

Have 2 questions that occured to me: First will the AI demand more money for the techs if you have more gold?
And how much is it worth to get an AI into a MP? Figure that it can be hard to answer with a straight answer as it depends on the situation, but it always seems I have to pay to get a MP established. Is it always like that?

 

[MysteryX]

The problem with a Mutual Protection Pact is that it obligates you to come to the aid of other civilizations for the frivolous wars they start. You should control your targets and the timing of your wars as much as possible; don't give up any of that control to other civilizations.

I don't recall a situation in which one civilization has engaged other civilizations in military alliances on the same turn they attacked me. Based the assumption that an AI takes care of diplomacy first in its turn and unit movement second, if an AI civilization attacks me, I am always going to have the first chance to engage other civilizations in military alliances, before my attacker's can sign up military alliances against me. So there is no reason to pay for a mutual protection pact which is risky and I may not use; I can just bank the money and save it for military alliances when I need them.

I don't know if mutual protection pacts deter other civilizations from attacking me (maybe the AI considers a mutual protection pact when considering how powerful I am). But given the risks of the pact, I'd have to be very weak and vulnerable to consider a mutual protection pact as a deterrent to other civs picking on me. And if I am so weak and vulnerable, another civilization is going to want quite the payment for such a pact, and I'm better off using that money to try to bolster my defenses.

The one situation in which I might consider a mutual protection pact, is if I needed it to screw with other civilizations' mutual protection pacts. If I want to attack A, but have B as an ally, and A and B have a mutual protection pact, I could make my own mutual protection pact with B, and incite A to be the first aggressor against me. As I understand it, the obligations of the mutual protection pact don't kick in until an enemy unit is in my territory, so I could even declare war against A, and as long as I don't move any units into A's territory, B's obligation under the pact to A doesn't kick in. Now when A moves a unit into my territory, B's obligation to me kicks in, and B declares war on A.

 

[Ataxerxes]

The problem with a Mutual Protection Pact is that it obligates you to come to the aid of other civilizations for the frivolous wars they start. You should control your targets and the timing of your wars as much as possible; don't give up any of that control to other civilizations.

I don't recall a situation in which one civilization has engaged other civilizations in military alliances on the same turn they attacked me. Based the assumption that an AI takes care of diplomacy first in its turn and unit movement second, if an AI civilization attacks me, I am always going to have the first chance to engage other civilizations in military alliances, before my attacker's can sign up military alliances against me. So there is no reason to pay for a mutual protection pact which is risky and I may not use; I can just bank the money and save it for military alliances when I need them.

I don't know if mutual protection pacts deter other civilizations from attacking me (maybe the AI considers a mutual protection pact when considering how powerful I am). But given the risks of the pact, I'd have to be very weak and vulnerable to consider a mutual protection pact as a deterrent to other civs picking on me. And if I am so weak and vulnerable, another civilization is going to want quite the payment for such a pact, and I'm better off using that money to try to bolster my defenses.

The one situation in which I might consider a mutual protection pact, is if I needed it to screw with other civilizations' mutual protection pacts. If I want to attack A, but have B as an ally, and A and B have a mutual protection pact, I could make my own mutual protection pact with B, and incite A to be the first aggressor against me. As I understand it, the obligations of the mutual protection pact don't kick in until an enemy unit is in my territory, so I could even declare war against A, and as long as I don't move any units into A's territory, B's obligation under the pact to A doesn't kick in. Now when A moves a unit into my territory, B's obligation to me kicks in, and B declares war on A.

Thoughtful use of MPP. IIRC the MPP kicks in when the first attack is made, so I think you can go into the enemy's territory, but just don't attack one of his units - defend first, then kill.

Other than unusual situations, I rarely use MPP's. I'm always going to war for a resource so I pick and choose my enemies. Having some idiot deciding I should go to war with Portugal on another side of the world I can't get to (hate ROP's) isn't desireable.

 

[MysteryX]

Thoughtful use of MPP. IIRC the MPP kicks in when the first attack is made, so I think you can go into the enemy's territory, but just don't attack one of his units - defend first, then kill.

It doesn't have to be an attack. It's being at war and in the enemy's territory. So you can attack enemy forces inside your own territory without triggering your enemy's mutual protection pacts, and you can declare war but not move your troops into your enemy's territory and not trigger the mutual protection pact. If you move your troops into your enemy's territory without declaring war, then your enemy tells you to move your troops or declare war and you choose war, that will trigger the enemy's mutual protection pacts.

 

[CKS]

It is only attacks in enemy territory that trigger MPP in Conquests. However, any units with zone of control or defensive bombardment can "attack" without your telling them to. Furthermore, they can attack into enemy territory while still being in your own territory.

 

[Theov]

Thoughtful use of MPP. IIRC the MPP kicks in when the first attack is made, so I think you can go into the enemy's territory, but just don't attack one of his units - defend first, then kill.

Other than unusual situations, I rarely use MPP's. I'm always going to war for a resource so I pick and choose my enemies. Having some idiot deciding I should go to war with Portugal on another side of the world I can't get to (hate ROP's) isn't desireable.

I use it sometimes when a powerful civ is next to me and they have another neighbor. So if they want to attack me, they automatically declare war to another neighbor as well, limiting the armies it will use on me.

 

[Raliuven]

Have 2 questions that occured to me: First will the AI demand more money for the techs if you have more gold?

There is a set price for the tech (though this can 'set' price can change as more Civs learn the tech). The AI's attitude towards you will have a small impact on this 'set' price and creates an 'asking' price. One useful thing about a MPP is that it makes the AI more favorable to you and thus may reduce the 'asking' price. Your rep will also determine how many 'payment options' you have - gpt, lux/resource trades, etc. IIRC, fooling with your gpt & treasure have no effect on the set or asking prices for techs.

The variance in the 'asking' prices are usually pretty small. If you are a miser like me, you can dance around with all the AIs until you find the best price. But sometimes other considerations are more important than a few gpt. For example, if you want to keep a nearby neighbor honest, give them a gpt deal (you give them gpt) for a tech. If they violate the agreement (commonly with a DOW), you get to keep your money and the tech and don't take a rep hit. Taken too the extreme, this could be considered an exploit. The justification for the trade is that an AI that is receiving money from you is less likely to DOW against you. Not an iron clad guarantee, though.

As a side note, a tricky way to see if an AI is going to DOW on you - check with your trade advisor and 'offer' to buy 10gp for 50gpt. If you rep is good and the trade advisor says they would refuse, they are going to DOW on you no matter what.

I have seen some articles that indicate that you may be able to get a better deal on other items with a variety of adjustments or disconnects/reconnects, etc. but many of them may be seen as an exploit.