How to win with slow troops???

[papamaverick]

Hey all, I'm new here but was a CivII guy who just started playing CivIII...my high score on CivII was a score of something like 600% on Diety, bottom-line was I kicked the game's tail.

I'm finding CivIII a good deal harder, or maybe it's just all that time in between...the Civs seem to expand a LOT more and not be content with 10-12 cities. I'm stuck on a huge continent with 4 of the 8 players, and space has run out. I'm attacking the Zulus right now, because they are the weakest, closest, and my cities already corner them off.

However, it's still pretty early in the midieval period, I have pikemen but no one else does, and I'm playing as the Persians who have the Immortal (4-2-1). I've been building up an army of Immortals and Pikemen to invade the Zulus and have captured one city but all the available units are just so slow, or fast and rather weak. The Zulus are in worse shape...they're best defensive dude is the impi but their only offensive dude is a bowman/archer.

In Civ2 I would usually put off war until the Dragoon/Cavalry time, preferably not until Modern times after which I would completely wipe everyone off the planet with my 40 cities and hundreds of tanks/transports and carrier battle groups. I cannot afford to wait to do that now, because while I have more cities than all other civs, they're small. I can't get to another continent to expand because I don't have the ships for it...so attacking the Zulus is my only choice.

My preference would be to spend 10-20 turns max in wiping the Zulus off the planet...how do I do this with such slow units? Should I raze all cities, or will that hurt my reputation too much? How can I avoid all my men being picked off by the veteran archers that always seem to have the defensive advantage even when attacking?
HELP I'll kill them eventually but if it takes me too long then I'm dead...

 

[bobgote]

What's your issue with the slow units? The Immortal is the strongest unit in the ancient era. You should be able to take anyone and everyone with them. Now, if you have pikemen, that means that chivalry and therefore knights is only 1-2 turns away. They will provide you with the speed you need. But you shouldn't really need speed, the persians' strength is in the ancient era and you should aim for domination there.

To avoid getting picked off, keep your troops bunched together, and when some are hurt, wait, and let them heal before moving on. Weigh up stats best to decide whether to attack or defend.
Enemy archer units have Attack of 2, Defence of 1
Immortals have Attack of 4, Defence of 2

I advise you attack them whenever you can, unless they are on a mountain, in which case, move to the best terrain you can, and defend, as the immortal is as good as any regular spearmen in defending (only beaten in ancient age by hoplite and legionary - both UU's)

As you progress in your war, keep all your cities pumping out immortals, as you need to leave probably at least 2 in each city you leave. War in this game is a whole empire thing, you can't do it half-hearted. I hope this post helps you. If you want further or specific help from fellow posters, try to single out your main problems.

Anyway, welcome to the forum and to Civ3. Hope you have as much fun with both as I have.

 

[Maple]

Wow, two new guys in one day? Cool...

In CivIII expanding quickly is MUCH more important than it was in CivII. On higher difficulty settings, the AI spreads like a wildfire, with free settlers and all. Even when the entire map is full, little packs of defensive unit + settler come wandering into your territory.

To quote bobgote, you can't do war half-hearted. War has made and broke my games. When you are in war, your cities are always under risk of attack, science suffers, culture suffers (I think) and in higher gov'ts you have war weariness. Try to have quick, decisive wars in which you quickly accomplish a goal and either end the war or start a new objective.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Portuguese]

Just some ideas...
- Immortals don't upgrade. So use them before it is too late and they become very backwards!

- The knight (4-3-2) is right arround the corner, coming with chivalry (6-3-3). It has 2 movement points and it can be upgraded to cavalry in the end of the medieval age. Kill impis with it!

- Razing cities will damage your reputation (as nuclear atacks in the future...). You will order genocide!!! But if you don't do it, the city may flip again to Zulus, i.e., the city may rejoin Zulus, disappearing your armies in town and appearing the Zulus best defense unit on it. Some people hate this, but in CIV3 this happens! I advise you not to raze cities, garisoning your hurted troops to recover health until city is in your full control.

-Note that starvation is advisable in CIV3. If they are too many and they are always revolting, starve them to size 1 and then let the pop grow. This way, it will have only 1 Zulu, and the rest will be Persian. You can see the difference by the different face, or by pointing the mouse at the diferent citizens...

-To avoid archers, you may use pikeman, but remember that knight has 4-3-2...

-Attackers don't get defense bonus... although it seems some times...

-Use your Great Leaders wisely. You can rush a wonder with them in a single turn... or you can build an army in a city, then loading to it 3 knights. PS: Never load fast with slow units, 'cause the army would walk at the movement rate of the slowest!!!
1st Grat Leader I advise you to build Sun Tzu's Art of War, but that's up to you. Many desagree on that...

Hope to have helped...

Welcome to CivFanatics Center

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Welcome!

Make sure you have a good road network to help speed up those slow troops. Getting your army from one side of your empire is a lot easier with a good road network.

Don't underestimate the power of the horseman. Sure he's only 2-1-2 but used en masse they can take out fortified spearmen. Horsemen are also great for pillaging strategic resources in enemy territory, thus denying the enemy the ability to build strong troops. One final thing..........horsemen force the impi to stay and duke it out till the end, whereas archers or swordsmen will cause an impi to retreat if they get him down to one hitpoint. This is because of the impi's 2 movement factor.

The key to this game is massed attacks. A stack of 7-8 veteran archers can take a town that's defended by 2 maybe even 3 spearmen/impi's. I use this "archer rush" strategy often on regent level and it works!

Good luck....................................

 

[papamaverick]

Hey thanks for all the replies.

I guess I'm just used to waiting until modern age and wiping people out with tanks and mech infantry...gosh 3 moves/turn sounds great right now.

I'm actually not very warlike, though I'm a student of military history...I just think civs grow better in peace but sometimes you just need some more elbow room.

Alright, if the Zulus have around 12 cities (their capitol is maxed out at pop. 12) then about how many troops do you think I'll need?

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Originally posted by papamaverick
I'm actually not very warlike, though I'm a student of military history...I just think civs grow better in peace but sometimes you just need some more elbow room.

Alright, if the Zulus have around 12 cities (their capitol is maxed out at pop. 12) then about how many troops do you think I'll need?

I agree with you that civs grow better in peacetime than in war, however in Civ3 early war in the ancient age is key to survival. You don't have to wipe everyone in sight off the map, just beat them up and get all their techs in the peace treaty you ultimately negotiate with them.

Size 12 city eh? Well, if your still in the early medieval age than you have two choices to take that city. Cut off all the roads to the size 12 city. Pillage all the irrigated tiles if any within that city's radius. Wait a couple of turns for their pop to starve. Bombard with catapults to speed this process, just use about 4-5 catapults for this task. The reasoning is because a city with >6 people in it puts up fierce resistance due to the defensive bonus of large cities. As for wiping out the rest of their empire I would bring 3-4 stacks of 8 units each to grab most of their towns. I wouldn't completely wipe them out though if they still have goodies to offer you for peace. Once you've soaked them for everything they have then break the treaty and kill 'em off.

 

[dojoboy]

The'll probably have at least 2-3 defenders in the capital, depends on what level you're playing and how quickly you attack --- they'll reinforce it to some degree. Is it built on a hill? This adds to their defense. Size 12 could still present you with some problems. Cities get a defense bonus appropriate to their size. I recommend using a half dozen catapults or cannons to lower the cities population and weaken some units. Take a couple turns to do it, don't rush. In the later game, stacks of 30 artillery are common among human players to weaken cities.

So, assume they have 3 defenders in the capital. I'd lay seige for 2-3 turns w/ about 10-12 offensive units attacking during the third turn. Once you bombard it with 3-4 catapults, you'll see how many units are in the capital through the damage inflicted.

 

[papamaverick]

Alright cool...I'm just trying to conquer them quickly as possible. My strategy at this point is to wait until I have approx. 60 units, plant them equally in my three border cities, and then in one turn blitzkreig their three border cities.

I'm trying to decide what to do next...should I sue for peace and wait until I heal/rebuild, or should I let them throw stuff at me out in the field?

The next objective would be the three cities farther in, closer to their capitol of Zimbabwe. Again, debating peace or not.

Finally, I would have all my remaining units converge and slaughter the capitol, taking control and forcing the Zulus to give me a handsome price for peace. At this point, the war is won and it's just technique to finish them off and drain the max gold out of them.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Allemand]

At the risk of being flamed by half the forum, let me throw this out:

The Immortal is highly overrated by lots of people. It's not a good attack unit because it's too slow. Send a stack of 20 Immortals to attack a stack of 20 Swordsmen in the open (most battles will occur in the open), and the Swordsmen will win. The Immortals have to move next to the Swordsmen and then attack on the NEXT turn. That means the Swordsmen get the first strike, and the first strike wins. A typical outcome: 20 Swordsmen attack, at 3-2 odds, meaning 12 wins and 8 losses. So now there are only 8 Immortals left against 12 Swordsmen, and both sides have suffered hit point losses probably to the degree that in most cases not more than 6 Immortals have a reasonable chance of winning on their turn. Even if the 6 win all their battles, there are 6 Swordsmen left, and the Immortals are now badly beaten up. The Swordsmen are in their own territory, so they will heal rapidly, while the Immortals will have to pull back to heal. If the defender has Horsemen, they will pick off the survivors before they can heal. It's a losing proposition for the Immortals.

Most battles won't start off as even as this, but the point is you will need very superior numbers if you attack with slow units. An exception might be the Roman Legionary, which can withstand the Swordsman attack without losing more than half the time (but it can't do that against the Immortal).

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I believe your assesment is correct. This is what probably would happen if this situation materialized in a game. I mildly disagree with your statement that Immortals are highly overrated. IMHO they are only slightly overrated. They still are good units, however I think that the Iroquois horseman might be better. That's a discussion for another thread.

Getting back to your point. The solution to the problem you presented is to avoid having it take place. Civ3, like chess, is a game of correct manuever. What I mean is this, in the situation you described above I would try to utilize terrain with my Immortals while on the attack. Try to keep your units on hills or mountains to minimize the damage to them during the first strike of the enemy. Alternatively, if fighting on your homefront, use roads to ensure that the Immortals strike first.

Just a thought.....................

 

[Allemand]

Moff Jerjerrod, you are right about maneuver being necessary, and against the AI it isn't too hard. Against a competent player, it will be hard. The assumption is the Immortals are in enemy territory. The defender has full use of his roads, while the attacker does not, so the Immortal plods along at one square per turn.

In hills, the defender will probably avoid combat unless it's absolutely necessary. The cities have to be defended or abandoned, so building up their defenses is a must. One big advantage in the city is that a barracks will provide instant healing, so the attacking force can be worn down if there are enough defenders. The defender will normally get replacements faster, too.

As for the Mounted Warrior, it can slice up a stack of Immortals very quickly, even in neutral territory. Place your MWs on a road and wait for the Immortals to move next to you (or a square away if on the road). Attack with all but one MW, moving your units back after the attacks, and let the last MW pillage the road before retreating. The Immortals will never be able to attack. Even in hills, the MW will inflict more damage than it takes, because some will retreat after losing.

I respect the Immortal only when I'm weak.

 

[dojoboy]

Goods posts.

Papamaverick, another thing to consider w/ catapults, cannons, & artillery is that the AI generally retreats damaged units. In this way, you can reduce the AI's assaults significantly, minimizing its next-turn counterattacks also.

 

[papamaverick]

Update on the game...

I decided it would be best to wait a little bit for Knights even if it meant that the Zulus would get them (which they did). I was then able to couple immortals (infantry) with catapults (artillary), pikemen (defense), and knights (fast attack) and victory was easy. Within a few turns I sliced right down the center of the Zulu mainland to capture their capitol city.

Big question now is...should I have peace or keep at 'em? (I have a good number of troops still, and lots more are coming...I'm in a true wartime economy here)

If there is a way to get peace for three-four turns to secure Zimbabwe, then I'd do it. How can I get them to break the treaty?
After that it's over.

 

[Shirannybl]

sorry if this is not the proper place, but I need to know that:
1)Is there possible to introduce a new created unit in an already saved game?
2)Is it possible rename a city after some time you are playing?
Thanks, Shirannybl

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Allemand
. . .The Immortal is highly overrated by lots of people. It's not a good attack unit because it's too slow. Send a stack of 20 Immortals to attack a stack of 20 Swordsmen in the open (most battles will occur in the open), and the Swordsmen will win. The Immortals have to move next to the Swordsmen and then attack on the NEXT turn. That means the Swordsmen get the first strike, and the first strike wins. . .
Most battles won't start off as even as this, but the point is you will need very superior numbers if you attack with slow units. An exception might be the Roman Legionary, which can withstand the Swordsman attack without losing more than half the time (but it can't do that against the Immortal).

First, welcome to the newbie! Do a Search for such Civ 3 joys as "Settler Diarrhea", "Culture Flipping", "AI Cheating", and many other fun things.

Second, EDIT, or use a mod from the Completed Mods forum. The game's basic values are nuts.

I agree in general with the above Immortals/Legionary comments.

Of course it depends on your situation. If you don't expect a counterattack, or are going against hoplites, Immortals are prefered. Otherwise it's Legionaries to withstand the initial strike.

It also depends on the terrain - good defensive terrain will increase the Immortal's defensise strength and make their higher attack value necessary.

Knights in the game have an absurdly high defense value. I changed them to 5.2.2. At 4.3.2. you can invade with stacks exclusively knights, which unbalances the game and is unrealistic.

 

[JuicyCivNewbie]

Originally posted by Zouave
First, welcome to the newbie! Do a Search for such Civ 3 joys as "Settler Diarrhea", "Culture Flipping", "AI Cheating", and many other fun things.

Originally posted by Allemand
The Immortal is highly overrated by lots of people. It's not a good attack unit because it's too slow.

But, against the Zulus it's a much better unit than against other civs. Remember the Zulus have the 2 move Impi which prevent the horsemen retreat, so effectively you're fighting with 2 move archers. In other words, if you're using horsemen vs Impi be prepared for a slaugter.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Sound thinking Allemand!



Your arguement points out that we will all have to rethink every units uses when PTW comes out!

Like Han Solo said "good against a remote is one thing, good against the living, that's another"

 

[bobgote]

If I had 20 immortals against 20 swordsmen, i doubt i would lose more than 5. If you can't attack the swordsmen, Fortify the immortals and they'll have an adjusted defense of at least 3, equal to the attack of the swordsman. Counter attack is brutal.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by papamaverick
However, it's still pretty early in the midieval period, I have pikemen but no one else does, and I'm playing as the Persians who have the Immortal (4-2-1). I've been building up an army of Immortals and Pikemen to invade the Zulus and have captured one city but all the available units are just so slow, or fast and rather weak.

You're doing just fine. You have the forces. Just do it.

The pikemen answer most of the objections of using the immortal. They protect the immortals from attacks, and hold the cities so your stack can move on. Beware the flip. If you don't understand culture, keep your stack out of the captured towns. If a town flips, who cares? In most situations, it just represents the road network, the crossroads. Recapture it on the way back through. Destroy the enemy forces and the cities will follow.