[GS] How Would You Like to See the Civics Tree Evolve in Regards to Military?

[Tinkerture]

As it stands, I think there is some missed potential in the civics tree to affect the military side of the game. Now obviously, military policy slots have a big impact, but there are very few things that tweak the combat itself. We only have a few cards and governments that buff combat directly. Military Tradition granting flanking is one of the only unlocks that changes how you think about the combat itself.

And that, really, is what I would like to see more developed. The civics tree seems like the perfect place to explore more tactical depth in the game. I have some thoughts of my own, but I don't want the discussion to revolve around my ideas.

How would you all like to see the civics tree evolve specifically in regards to the military?

 

[Xur]

Maybe cards that take up more than 1 slot, but is that much better. Maybe a card that could help the ******** AI? A 2-slot card that gives units auxiliary wall climbing/destroying capabilities, thus removing the dependency of artillery. I tend to always pick the same cards... something needs changing anyway.

 

[The googles do nothing]

The three types changes to Military policies I can think of:
- Tying policies into Buildings (not just military buildings). Some like the Agoge would be +25% and an additional +25% with a Barracks. Others like Professional Army would require the appropriate era building to get the discount.
- Taking away abilities and adding them back with policies.
Subjugation: Available at Political Philosophy. City capture is raze only without this card. This is more for MP play because ancient conquest is so OP.
- Just plain new abilities:
Sapping: Available at Military Tactics. Melee Units take no damage when attacking city walls.
Exploitation: Available at Military Tradition. Melee Units attack Ranged units at +5.

 

[Tinkerture]

My thoughts:

1) Have more unlocks such as flanking. For some possibilities, here's a list of military tactics. The Googles' suggestions of Sapping and Exploitation are perfect examples. I don't even think they necessarily need to be policy cards.
2) Similar to corps, armies, etc. have the civics tree unlock the ability for limited unit stacking. Say one unlock allows one melee unit to stack with one ranged unit. Another might allow a melee unit to stack with a siege unit. If these prove too powerful, they could come with steeper upkeep costs. Could be a great way to alleviate some of the issues with one unit per tile, provided the AI can make sense of it.
3) Civics tree could unlock additional abilities for great generals.

Certainly not calling for all of these changes, but these are some of the ways I could see the civics tree's role in the military side of the game expanded, either in the next expansion or civ 7.

 

[acluewithout]

- Tying policies into Buildings (not just military buildings). Some like the Agoge would be +25% and an additional +25% with a Barracks. Others like Professional Army would require the appropriate era building to get the discount.

That would be a good change. I’d suggest linking some of these to the Industrial Zone as well. (I also don’t think you should be able to build the GDR without a Factory or an Aircraft Carrier without a Seaport.)

1) Have more unlocks such as flanking. For some possibilities, here's a list of military tactics. The Googles' suggestions of Sapping and Exploitation are perfect examples. I don't even think they necessarily need to be policy cards.

A couple more like that would be good.

I’d also like to see some more units unlock via the Civics Tree, although I don’t have any immediate suggestions for what units they’d be.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As I see it, drawing in Civics/Social Policies to military applications requires a redrawing of the so-called Promotions as well.

That's because right now, the 'promotions' are a combination of experience, tactical innovations, technical upgrades, weapons improvements, all jumbled together under an inappropriate title. Many of those could be instead invested in Civics.

For example.
Right now, Recon Promotions are:
Ranger - faster movement in woods and rainforest (tactical/terrain experience)
Alpine - faster movement on hills (tactical/terrain experience)
Sentry - can see through woods or rainforest
Guerrilla - can move after attacking (tactical/exerience innovation)
Spyglass - +1 sight range (technology upgrade - Renaissance Era to be exact)
Ambush - +20 Combat Strength in all situations (tactical innovation - but 'ambush' is practiced by Neolithic Hunters!)
Camouflage - only adjacent enemy units can see the unit (experience/technical upgrade - the term 'camouflage' applied to military units dates from 1916 CE)

And, worse, you can select a Ranger or Sentry Promotion without ever having had a Recon Unit move through a tile of woods or rainforest, or an Ambush Promotion without a Recon Unit ever getting into a battle with anyone. How are they learning this stuff?

instead, use Civics, representing experience in certain situations and innovation based on that experience:

Woodscraft (Ancient Era) - Faster movement in woods and rainforest
Bonus: X tiles of woods or rainforest tiles within your city radius (all cities combined)
Foresters (Medieval Era) - can see through woods and/or rainforest
Bonus: X tiles of woods or rainforest being Worked (all cities combined)
Lure of the High Country (Ancient Era) - faster movement on hills
Bonus: X tiles of hills and Mountains within your city radius (all cities combined) - Mountain tiles count double
Hit and Run (Classical Era) - can move after attacking
Bonus: X attacks by your Recon units on enemy military Units.
Spy Out the Land (Renaissance Era) - +1 sight range
Bonus: X times one of your Recon units ended a move next to an enemy military Unit
Ranger Training (Industrial Era) - +20 Combat Strength in all situations
Bonus: X times a Recon Unit kills an enemy combat Unit.
Silent and Deadly (Modern Era) - only adjacent enemy units can see the unit.
Bonus: X times a Recon Unit captured an enemy civilian Unit

'X' would have to be determined by playtesting, but it would be an increasingly large number, because once you 'get' one of these Civics, you can select them at any time: basically, you know how to train your Recon units in these techniques.

Promotions for units would be relegated to being able to do what they already do, only better - incremental increases in Combat Factor or Movement, not entirely new capabilities, as now.

 

[Haig]

Nationalism could unlock the rifleman unit.

It would represent the massed armies used in Franco-Prussian war, US civil war, Paraguyan war etc.

 

[Tinkerture]

As I see it, drawing in Civics/Social Policies to military applications requires a redrawing of the so-called Promotions as well.

That's because right now, the 'promotions' are a combination of experience, tactical innovations, technical upgrades, weapons improvements, all jumbled together under an inappropriate title. Many of those could be instead invested in Civics.

For example.
Right now, Recon Promotions are:
Ranger - faster movement in woods and rainforest (tactical/terrain experience)
Alpine - faster movement on hills (tactical/terrain experience)
Sentry - can see through woods or rainforest
Guerrilla - can move after attacking (tactical/exerience innovation)
Spyglass - +1 sight range (technology upgrade - Renaissance Era to be exact)
Ambush - +20 Combat Strength in all situations (tactical innovation - but 'ambush' is practiced by Neolithic Hunters!)
Camouflage - only adjacent enemy units can see the unit (experience/technical upgrade - the term 'camouflage' applied to military units dates from 1916 CE)

And, worse, you can select a Ranger or Sentry Promotion without ever having had a Recon Unit move through a tile of woods or rainforest, or an Ambush Promotion without a Recon Unit ever getting into a battle with anyone. How are they learning this stuff?

instead, use Civics, representing experience in certain situations and innovation based on that experience:

Woodscraft (Ancient Era) - Faster movement in woods and rainforest
Bonus: X tiles of woods or rainforest tiles within your city radius (all cities combined)
Foresters (Medieval Era) - can see through woods and/or rainforest
Bonus: X tiles of woods or rainforest being Worked (all cities combined)
Lure of the High Country (Ancient Era) - faster movement on hills
Bonus: X tiles of hills and Mountains within your city radius (all cities combined) - Mountain tiles count double
Hit and Run (Classical Era) - can move after attacking
Bonus: X attacks by your Recon units on enemy military Units.
Spy Out the Land (Renaissance Era) - +1 sight range
Bonus: X times one of your Recon units ended a move next to an enemy military Unit
Ranger Training (Industrial Era) - +20 Combat Strength in all situations
Bonus: X times a Recon Unit kills an enemy combat Unit.
Silent and Deadly (Modern Era) - only adjacent enemy units can see the unit.
Bonus: X times a Recon Unit captured an enemy civilian Unit

'X' would have to be determined by playtesting, but it would be an increasingly large number, because once you 'get' one of these Civics, you can select them at any time: basically, you know how to train your Recon units in these techniques.

Promotions for units would be relegated to being able to do what they already do, only better - incremental increases in Combat Factor or Movement, not entirely new capabilities, as now.

I think you're right that looking at current promotion trees could be another place to draw inspiration from. However, I'm not sure that I only want to see combat factor or movement increases in the promotion tree as I think that would remove a lot of the interesting choice involved in promotions. But perhaps one solution would be to have more polices or civics unlocks tied to experience. That would at least better represent pedagogy improving the learning of tactics. As it stands there is only Survey (recon experience) and Oligarchy + Legacy bonus.