How would your ideal diplomacy system be?

Psychotronics

Tribune of the Plebs
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Most people felt disappointed with the diplomacy system in Civ V, and pretty much everyone was dissatisfied with the solution used in BE:RT. So, while they already gave some information upon which to speculate, how would your ideal system be?
 
It's not possible to have a perfect diplomatic system as it has conflict goals. First, AI needs to look as human as possible. Second, AI should act with it's own agenda. It should be predictable enough to make diplomacy game meaningful, it should be unpredictable enough to not allow fully manipulatable AI as in Civ 3 or 4. If you throw in multiplayer, it becomes a mess.

Some time ago on the forum I suggested a "public opinion" system, which could partially solve it. The general idea is - the civilization bias and current likes/dislikes is represented by "public opinion", which affects both AI and human players. Leaders could overcome it, i.e. by attacking civ with good relations, but with consequences like unhappiness. The system should be able to solve general problems of diplomacy system, but it's more complex.

One of additional bonuses of hte system is a layer of espionage game. You may want to reduce your population opinion towards specific civilization before attacking them, but this action could be uncovered with espionage, making planning for war visible even if it comes within a human player head.

That's the basis of better diplomacy system I see :)
 
Some time ago on the forum I suggested a "public opinion" system, which could partially solve it. The general idea is - the civilization bias and current likes/dislikes is represented by "public opinion", which affects both AI and human players. Leaders could overcome it, i.e. by attacking civ with good relations, but with consequences like unhappiness. The system should be able to solve general problems of diplomacy system, but it's more complex.

how about the reverse as well? as in, the population of a civ that lost a war could be itching for revenge.
 
This also plays into the gamist vs. simulationist problem. Do you want your AI opponents to play like human players playing to win or play according to their particular ethics/character? While I intellectually appreciate the need for it, the playing-to-win aspect of the AI in CiV was a bit detraction for me.
 
This also plays into the gamist vs. simulationist problem. Do you want your AI opponents to play like human players playing to win or play according to their particular ethics/character? While I intellectually appreciate the need for it, the playing-to-win aspect of the AI in CiV was a bit detraction for me.

Yes, that's what I meant. I have less problems with Civ5 AI that Civ3 or Civ4 where I was able to completely manipulate AIs and unleash the whole world against my enemies, but I understand people who dislike Civ5 AI more.

The system where AI and Human players have the same consequences for being gamists or simulationist looks like a good solution to me. Of course, it's just a concept, it could easily appear to be not so great in the real life.
 
First, AI needs to look as human as possible.
why?

Some time ago on the forum I suggested a "public opinion" system, which could partially solve it. The general idea is - the civilization bias and current likes/dislikes is represented by "public opinion", which affects both AI and human players. Leaders could overcome it, i.e. by attacking civ with good relations, but with consequences like unhappiness. The system should be able to solve general problems of diplomacy system, but it's more complex.
the Will of the People mechanic has been suggested numerous times.
for instance here. page 14 in the attached document. I recommend you read it.

in my view, the main idea is that diplo modifiers are moved to the pop. population may experience war weariness, xenophobia, bloodlust, etc. the player may give in to the people and gain or choose to ignore his people's will and face consequences. :goodjob:

adding the Will of the People will enrich diplo, but it in no way solve the trust & distrust AI dilemma.
 
In Civ 5 even with the expansions packs I did not care for 90% of the AI Communications, in fact they get annoying because they stop the turn processing, I do feel BERT helped that but not by much.

I honestly don't care how they do it, but If a care when I receive a communication from another civilization then they have done it right
 
I'll love for there to be a "public opinion" vs "individual opinion" aspect to the game. An AI will be friendly if the Human's "public opinion" is higher than a civ's "individual opinion" of the human. Backstabbing Civ see your "public opinion" lower than it really is. And as an AI Civ gets beaten down their "public opinion" grows (poor little Venice) and the Backstabbery level grows (crazy desperate Venice.

Basically the Stronger an AI Civ is, the more they see weak civs as "poor little babies to be exploited" who only they are allowed to conquer. Whereas weak civs see other weak civs as lambs to devour. In the beginning, everyone is weak so everyone hates each other. Late game, the strong fight the strong and the weak fight the weak and those who fight the trend better bribe and threaten everyone else to look the other way or get a dozen rivals.
 
A Casus Belli system is long overdue. I don't know why they did not even consider it yet, given that it works perfectly fine and has been implemented with huge success in the PDX line of strategy. It's even easier to implement in the Civ framework, and would fit perfectly with some existing systems (happiness, warmonger score).
 
In Civ 5 even with the expansions packs I did not care for 90% of the AI Communications, in fact they get annoying because they stop the turn processing

For most of vanilla I played on a laptop that couldn't really handle the game very well.

I have fond memories of going AFK between turns because the AI turns were taking 2-3 minutes, only to come back and be met with a message from Catherine to say 'just between you and me, your army's kinda small' :p
 
It's not possible to have a perfect diplomatic system as it has conflict goals. First, AI needs to look as human as possible. Second, AI should act with it's own agenda. It should be predictable enough to make diplomacy game meaningful, it should be unpredictable enough to not allow fully manipulatable AI as in Civ 3 or 4. If you throw in multiplayer, it becomes a mess.

Some time ago on the forum I suggested a "public opinion" system, which could partially solve it. The general idea is - the civilization bias and current likes/dislikes is represented by "public opinion", which affects both AI and human players. Leaders could overcome it, i.e. by attacking civ with good relations, but with consequences like unhappiness. The system should be able to solve general problems of diplomacy system, but it's more complex.

One of additional bonuses of the system is a layer of espionage game. You may want to reduce your population opinion towards specific civilization before attacking them, but this action could be uncovered with espionage, making planning for war visible even if it comes within a human player head.

That's the basis of better diplomacy system I see :)

The risk with public opinion is that it becomes a mini-game in itself, unless it is integrated in with the growth limiter mechanic of the Civ game, be it happiness or health.

Civ5 AI especially in its final BNW form often surprises in its prescient read of the situation. I just wrapped up a Venice game where the AI made it as hard as possible for me to win, and I almost didn't win.

But to some players, the lack of tool tips means their default read on any AI action is assume the worst (incompetence/poor AI/psychopathy) but the AI follows a fairly easy to understand logic.

They appear to asses their VC and their rivals every 20-40 turns, just long enough for the Declarations of Friendships to expire, and so long as players understand friends today can be rivals tomorrow and friendships in Civ5 are contingent on shared interest as the game evolves, and not the bribe the human players dumped on the AI, then it all makes sense.

So in that context, a public opinion system would work if it is simply the readout for players to interact with the AI, to more clearly see their agendas and goals, rather than understanding them through interactions with the AI and knowing each individual AI leader's preferences

From the sounds of it, Civ6 will have more tooltips in the diplomacy screen and I'm all for that. I particularly want easy access to information trade deals, locations of cities in a minimap when discussing deals with AI leaders.

That said, I want there to be unspoken inferences to AI behavior that isn't 'told' to the players that players need to pick up from playing the game and knowing the leaders historically.

Losing the experience in learning the AI's agendas could alter the flavour of diplomacy from the current state of making an educated guess and planning your grand strategy around that guess and then discovering you were almost right or very wrong, vs. KNOWING the AI agenda inside and out and just playing with the numbers to manipulate the desired diplomatic result.

The latter isn't so much fun to me. That's not diplomacy. And that's a dumb down diplomacy for people who just want to min max numbers. They don't call diplomacy statecraft for nothing. It's as much an art as a science. There's a lot of relationship building, agenda seeking, and backstabbing involved.
 
Proper alliances and big allied blocs
This would be a dream come true, also A.I. would propose for player to join these alliances.

Actually the little tidbits from Civ 6 diplomacy sounds pretty good:
Early eras it's more basic, later era focuses less on warfare.
Also Ed's cryptic remark "there is more ways than one to declare a war"
 
Proper alliances and big allied blocs
This would be a dream come true, also A.I. would propose for player to join these alliances.

Actually the little tidbits from Civ 6 diplomacy sounds pretty good:
Early eras it's more basic, later era focuses less on warfare.
Also Ed's cryptic remark "there is more ways than one to declare a war"

Alliances and 'blocs' was Soren's thing with Civ3 and 4.

The result of his work refining 'blocs' didn't really produce the desired result in 4, and was largely abandoned with Warlords/BTS when vassals came to the fore.

I would much prefer they refine what they have in Civ5 today. Have shared common interests, like ideology, dislike for certain other Civs, and other map derived factors drive those alliances.

Yeah, the end result is the Civ who you thought was your best friend in the early might end up choosing the wrong ideology and the other Civ you didn't care much for is now best buds and proposing things you wanted in the UN, but that's life. A predictable diplomatic game isn't diplomacy.
 
The risk with public opinion is that it becomes a mini-game in itself, unless it is integrated in with the growth limiter mechanic of the Civ game, be it happiness or health.

Yes, the idea was to connect it with Happiness (to punish actions against public opinion) and espionage at least. And yes, I understand there are risks. Too much distance from a theory and actual implementation.

Losing the experience in learning the AI's agendas could alter the flavour of diplomacy from the current state of making an educated guess and planning your grand strategy around that guess and then discovering you were almost right or very wrong, vs. KNOWING the AI agenda inside and out and just playing with the numbers to manipulate the desired diplomatic result.

The latter isn't so much fun to me. That's not diplomacy. And that's a dumb down diplomacy for people who just want to min max numbers. They don't call diplomacy statecraft for nothing. It's as much an art as a science. There's a lot of relationship building, agenda seeking, and backstabbing involved.

Yes, these are other words about what I'm trying to say. And yes, I dislike the latter too :)

The idea with public system was - you could know half of the AI agenda, its public opinion numbers, but AI could still go against it if greatly needed AND human players will be put under the same conditions. What I was hoping to be achievable is to combine immersion of understanding AI characters and unpredictability needed for better gameplay. But I believe the immersion thing will depend on the player a lot.

Plus, the important point is - that should be the system equally working for multiplayer, which isn't an easy thing.
 
I want the option to seduce leaders.

I want there to be constant relationship drama that bleeds into politics because I think these games tend to forget that there's a lot going on at the interpersonal level that can have major ramifications in the geopolitical arena.

I want to be able to seduce Catherine the Great and spread rumors about her wild and unorthodox sexual practices.
 
Some time ago on the forum I suggested a "public opinion" system, which could partially solve it. The general idea is - the civilization bias and current likes/dislikes is represented by "public opinion", which affects both AI and human players. Leaders could overcome it, i.e. by attacking civ with good relations, but with consequences like unhappiness. The system should be able to solve general problems of diplomacy system, but it's more complex.

Would be like the public opinion system in the SimCity games. If unhappiness could also result in partisan-style units like we saw in Civ2, that could mean if you really went against your citizens, you would have a revolt on your hands.

They could also make each city have different public opinion, so that would create conflict within your civilization. So for instance, if a border city has a big foreign population, they might not want war with the civ they're from.
 
I want the option to seduce leaders.

I want there to be constant relationship drama that bleeds into politics because I think these games tend to forget that there's a lot going on at the interpersonal level that can have major ramifications in the geopolitical arena.

I want to be able to seduce Catherine the Great and spread rumors about her wild and unorthodox sexual practices.


Well, you're just mad Gandhi has her ear. :p
 
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