I don't understand how those expert players manage to do it

Glububble

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
31
I've been reading the forums and I have trouble comprehending how those CIVIII players manage to expand so fast and have so many units. I feel discouraged as it looks like I will never be able to get to their level. Sadly a lot of these threads are old and those people are probably dead or stopped playing Civ (which is the same thing). Take this game for example, or the top scoring CIVIII hall of fame games. (scores almost approaching 100000...) I can't understand how it's possible to perform as well as this, against impossible odds. I have no idea how I'm supposed to improve. Unfortunately a lot of these players are unavailable for comment.

Any ideas?
 
use the players who are still active. ;)
and read the stories. read the war academy. try those strategies you read about. Play in a succession game or tutored game. ask specific question about situations and strategies you read about but do not understand how to apply.
t_x
 
One simple point in scoring is the bigger the map, the higher the potential score. Bamspeedy played on a huge map iirc. Had he played on a std size, he would have gotten a lower score and would have had a much harder time.

Next is the level, the higher the greater the multiplier of the score.

Larger maps played out to near the 2050AD time, tends to mean more pop, that means more points.

So all other time being equal, those will increase your scores.

As to the play style, that comes with experiences. Like Templar mentioned, follow or read some of the SG's threads. Especially the ones that are training types. They will cover things, you may not have thought of, before now.
 
First of all, check out the War Academy. In particular, "Cracker's Opening Plays," and "Warmongering 101: A Tactical Primer." There are other great articles, but those two are exceptional. Second, there's an Archive of Training Day Games down in Succession Games. Reading some of those games will give you some insight into how some of the better players think about the game.
 
I've been reading the forums and I have trouble comprehending how those CIVIII players manage to expand so fast and have so many units. I feel discouraged as it looks like I will never be able to get to their level. Sadly a lot of these threads are old and those people are probably dead or stopped playing Civ (which is the same thing). Take this game for example, or the top scoring CIVIII hall of fame games. (scores almost approaching 100000...) I can't understand how it's possible to perform as well as this, against impossible odds. I have no idea how I'm supposed to improve. Unfortunately a lot of these players are unavailable for comment.

Any ideas?

Rather than compare yourself to how other people have played the game, have you determined for yourself what you playing style is? Mine style does not follow the War Academy, and I do not care at all about making the Hall of Fame.
 
Sometimes it helps to play the game and post the save onto the forum when you're stuck or not sure what to do next.
 
Glububble, if your question is how to play better, there is a lot to read about it, and there are still people who can help you. Like MrRandomGuy said, you could post a save and let us give advices. What level do you usually play ? There are threads about how to pass to a harder level, I'll try to find links and post them here. They are quite long but worth reading.
 
Build more workers!

:cool:
 
Build more workers!

No, "more workers" are still not enough! Build at least twice as many... ;)

Ok, seriously: "more workers" is indeed one of the few strategies that are easy to adopt and which apply to "both worlds", the player who likes to play just for fun and plays his own modded variants like timerover51, and the player who likes to compete with others and compare his results in the un-modded game with the legends of the past.

For the latter kind it is important to note that we should talk only about the "un-modded" game. Even though I consider myself a player of both worlds (once in a while I like to play a scenario or mod for a completely different game experience and to avoid boredom, but I also enjoy the competition and discussions in the GOTM community), I have to say that it is not a good idea to mix arguments concerning "modded varaints" with ones concerning the "un-modded base game". This would be comparing apples with oranges. For example, timerover51, in a game where you mod the Pallace or Pentagon to auto-produce leaders/armies a military victory will become much much easier than in an un-modded game. And also the tips in SirPleb's war academy article about "leader farming" may not be so important to you as they are to us when we play the un-modded game.

So my first rule for strategy discussions would be: only discuss the un-modded game (unless the thread explicitly states that it is about this or that variant, which would then have to be one that can be publicly downloaded from the Modder's Forum, not one that exists only on one single player's hard-drive.)


Having said the above, I want to challenge your statement "Mine style does not follow the War Academy". Of course the articles in the War Academy are of variable quality and some may indeed be a matter of style (for example I never build any artillery units - at least not in single-player games of difficulty lower than Deity - even when playing for the GOTM competition - so in that point I "don't follow the War Academy" either...), but I would say that many of the War Academy's articles discuss topics of such general or fundamental relevance, that they could be beneficial to both: the un-modded game as well as your variants.

For example:
  • A worker works pretty much the same in every flavor of Civ3 and tile improvements are always important, adding shields, food or gold to your economy. (Unless you are playing a mod which starts already with a fully improved and settled map.) So detailed analysis of early worker management will benefit your playing skills as much as a GOTM of HoF player's skills.
  • The corruption model is pretty much hard-coded in the exe, so will be the same in any type of Civ3 game. You can tweak the properties of each government a bit or play with different corruption-reducing buildings like courthouse or police station, but the underlying mechanism remains the same, so a deep knowledge of that will again benefit everyone.
  • The underlying basics of warfare should be another example. You can add different types of units to the game, but a good grasp of the general strategies and tactics of Civ3-warfare, will give you an edge in any type of game that contains warfare.
  • I think it is not possible to add new civ traits to the game. So even in a variant game the tribe you lead will have some (possibly more than the standard 2, possibly less) of the 8 existing traits. You will benefit a lot, if you have well-founded knowledge about how to best leverage the power of an agricultural civ or how to make the most out of the expansionsit trait, etc.

There may be more, but this is just to incourage you to give the War Academy (or the Training Day Games, the legendary Succession Games or the GOTM discussions) a "second chance". There is a lot of wisdom in these resources, and I'm sure you can still learn a lot about our beloved game, even if you do not "care for the HoF" (which I don't do either, by the way... ;)).

In any case, in order to answer Glububble's original questions: yes, if you want to understand how the old masters achieved these incredible results, there is no other alternative than to study the intrinsics of the mechanisms they applied. And these mechanics are most prominently documented in the War Academy.
Of course it is tedious and takes a lot of time. You will have to read a lot, some stuff will be a revelation to you, some stuff will lead you on a false trail (because it is outdated, e.g. was written at a time when only Civ3 Vanilla was available and then later changed in one of the subsequent patches/versions and nobody cared to correct that strategy article since then... :(), but slowly but surely you will advance on the road towards mastery. However, it won't be easy, it's like chess: someone who just learned the moves, can probably not reasonably expect to become a Grandmaster in the course of a few weeks... Prepare yourself for a few years of intense study and research.

Cheers, Lanzelot
 
One thing I've noticed since I started playing Conquests instead of vanilla is that the specialized citizens actually work. In vanilla the only specialized citizens that work is the entertainer. The scientist and tax collector doesn't work and is bugged.

With that in mind, micromanaging is how people do so well in Civ3. Moving citizens to different tiles, making tax collectors to increase your gpt, making scientists to increase research output, etc. If you micromanage your cities frequently and rarely or never automate your workers it makes a huge difference in game play.

I'm sure this strategy *could* work in vanilla but with the broken tax collectors and scientists it is not as effective.

It's a pain to micromanage, but it's more of a pain to rely on cities building wealth.
 
No, "more workers" are still not enough! Build at least twice as many... ;)

Ok, seriously: "more workers" is indeed one of the few strategies that are easy to adopt and which apply to "both worlds", the player who likes to play just for fun and plays his own modded variants like timerover51, and the player who likes to compete with others and compare his results in the un-modded game with the legends of the past.

For the latter kind it is important to note that we should talk only about the "un-modded" game. Even though I consider myself a player of both worlds (once in a while I like to play a scenario or mod for a completely different game experience and to avoid boredom, but I also enjoy the competition and discussions in the GOTM community), I have to say that it is not a good idea to mix arguments concerning "modded varaints" with ones concerning the "un-modded base game". This would be comparing apples with oranges. For example, timerover51, in a game where you mod the Pallace or Pentagon to auto-produce leaders/armies a military victory will become much much easier than in an un-modded game. And also the tips in SirPleb's war academy article about "leader farming" may not be so important to you as they are to us when we play the un-modded game.

So my first rule for strategy discussions would be: only discuss the un-modded game (unless the thread explicitly states that it is about this or that variant, which would then have to be one that can be publicly downloaded from the Modder's Forum, not one that exists only on one single player's hard-drive.)


Having said the above, I want to challenge your statement "Mine style does not follow the War Academy". Of course the articles in the War Academy are of variable quality and some may indeed be a matter of style (for example I never build any artillery units - at least not in single-player games of difficulty lower than Deity - even when playing for the GOTM competition - so in that point I "don't follow the War Academy" either...), but I would say that many of the War Academy's articles discuss topics of such general or fundamental relevance, that they could be beneficial to both: the un-modded game as well as your variants.

For example:
  • A worker works pretty much the same in every flavor of Civ3 and tile improvements are always important, adding shields, food or gold to your economy. (Unless you are playing a mod which starts already with a fully improved and settled map.) So detailed analysis of early worker management will benefit your playing skills as much as a GOTM of HoF player's skills.
  • The corruption model is pretty much hard-coded in the exe, so will be the same in any type of Civ3 game. You can tweak the properties of each government a bit or play with different corruption-reducing buildings like courthouse or police station, but the underlying mechanism remains the same, so a deep knowledge of that will again benefit everyone.
  • The underlying basics of warfare should be another example. You can add different types of units to the game, but a good grasp of the general strategies and tactics of Civ3-warfare, will give you an edge in any type of game that contains warfare.
  • I think it is not possible to add new civ traits to the game. So even in a variant game the tribe you lead will have some (possibly more than the standard 2, possibly less) of the 8 existing traits. You will benefit a lot, if you have well-founded knowledge about how to best leverage the power of an agricultural civ or how to make the most out of the expansionsit trait, etc.

There may be more, but this is just to incourage you to give the War Academy (or the Training Day Games, the legendary Succession Games or the GOTM discussions) a "second chance". There is a lot of wisdom in these resources, and I'm sure you can still learn a lot about our beloved game, even if you do not "care for the HoF" (which I don't do either, by the way... ;)).

In any case, in order to answer Glububble's original questions: yes, if you want to understand how the old masters achieved these incredible results, there is no other alternative than to study the intrinsics of the mechanisms they applied. And these mechanics are most prominently documented in the War Academy.
Of course it is tedious and takes a lot of time. You will have to read a lot, some stuff will be a revelation to you, some stuff will lead you on a false trail (because it is outdated, e.g. was written at a time when only Civ3 Vanilla was available and then later changed in one of the subsequent patches/versions and nobody cared to correct that strategy article since then... :(), but slowly but surely you will advance on the road towards mastery. However, it won't be easy, it's like chess: someone who just learned the moves, can probably not reasonably expect to become a Grandmaster in the course of a few weeks... Prepare yourself for a few years of intense study and research.

Cheers, Lanzelot

I will remain silent here from now on, per your clear desire.
 
Just curious, what would be a high score for a standard map, 8 civs, on regent level and finished by around 1800 D.C.?

That does not really matter so much with such an early finish. You'll get the early finish bonus and that'll make up the bulk of your score. 11550 points for 1800 BC Regent. On top of that there will be some points for territory, population etc., but it won't make such a big difference.

ETA: And of course, score overall is a fairly unsuitable means to evaluate the "quality" of a game you played. Finish date is much more like it (but I am afraid not the whole story either).
 
That does not really matter so much with such an early finish. You'll get the early finish bonus and that'll make up the bulk of your score. 11550 points for 1800 BC Regent. On top of that there will be some points for territory, population etc., but it won't make such a big difference.

LOL sorry, I misspelt it. Actually I meant 1800 a.C, with railroads, cavalries vs riflemen and stuffs. (D.C. is in spanish :D)
 
I've searched for "War academy". Cannot find it. Anyone have a link?

I'd like to be able to get a Leader early on, but I can only do it once I have amassed a lot of Cavalry or even tanks.

Thanks.
 
Glububble,
I believe many HoF games (if not all) are played on maps that are selected for good starts. Having ample food bonuses and resources to start helps. That being said, they have great playing skills and micromanaging.

Use of settler and worker factories helps with rapid expansion. If you're not using the technique, here's the link http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/settler_factory.php

I don't have the patience for hard core micromanaging, but will drop my research spending to the bare minumum when I'm 1-2 turns away to learn a tech to avoid over run spending, have tried resource disconnect/reconnect to quickly build older units then cash upgrade, and do prebuild for wonders and other expensive buildings.
 
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