I hate diplomatic defeats

[WeirdoJoker]

I was well on my way toward either a Space Race or Cultural Victory (Japan, Small world, Chieftain), when Korea finishes the UN only a couple turns in front of me, and then wins the Diplomatic victory 3-2. (I had previously destroyed the Russians, which later gave me aluminum and uranium.) I had had trouble expanding because, though technically a Pangaea, there were three islands, and I was restricted to one of them for a long time, and as a result the Greeks and Koreans expanded way beyond what I was able to do and never could catch up. And this whole thing was playing at Chieftain, too. I think I will go back to disabling the Diplomatic victory condition; this has happened once before, and it's only controllable if you actually build the UN and thus have a choice as to whether to hold a vote.

Aargh!

 

[Kirejara]

If you know, that the KI will beat you in the UN race, you can still try to bribe every other nation to vote for you (if you did not behave too bad ).

Another solution could be to form a military alliance with everyone against the UN owner.

Both should be done before the completion of the UN and the subsequent vote of course.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

If you know, that the KI will beat you in the UN race, you can still try to bribe every other nation to vote for you....

I have no idea how to do that. I didn't know it was an option.

Another solution could be to form a military alliance with everyone against the UN owner.

That would not have been doable in that game. Everyone was friendly (except me and Russia, but I had long since wiped them out).

Both should be done before the completion of the UN and the subsequent vote of course.

Naturally. Trouble is, I really thought I was going to get it built first so that I could avoid holding a vote at all, which would have given me plenty of time to either complete my cultural victory or the space race (probably the latter). The only two times this has happened, the first time I did not pay any attention to the UN, and so I kind of got sandbagged. This time, as soon as I saw others were building it, I should have investigated the relevant cities to find out how long it would take, to see if I could do something to gain momentum. I didn't, though there's no way of knowing if anything was doable.

 

[Kirejara]

There is not exactly an option to influence the UN-vote.

But if you give gifts (gold, techs, luxuries or resources) to the other nations in the turn before the vote, it is more likely, that they will vote for you and not the other guy.

This is of course no guarantie to win.

And it will have no affect if you are not in the vote (only the UN-Builder and second largest empire are in the vote).

BTW, I know that Korea could be a powerhouse even under KI control, but how was it possible for them to reach Fission before you finished the UN on Chieftain?

Totally OT, I am allways amused that the english word for "Geschenke" is "Gifts". In the german language "Gift" means "Poison".

 

[WeirdoJoker]

There is not exactly an option to influence the UN-vote.

But if you give gifts (gold, techs, luxuries or resources) to the other nations in the turn before the vote, it is more likely, that they will vote for you and not the other guy.

Ah. That makes more sense.

This is of course no guarantie to win.

And it will have no affect if you are not in the vote (only the UN-Builder and second largest empire are in the vote).

I was, at least, in the vote ... lost 3-2. The first time I suffered a diplomatic defeat, I was not in the vote.

BTW, I know that Korea could be a powerhouse even under KI control, but how was it possible for them to reach Fission before you finished the UN on Chieftain?

I have no idea. Probably because I was heading for a cultural victory (or space race victory, whichever came first), and so I was researching optional techs like music theory and free artistry in order to get J.S. Bach's Cathedral and Shakespeare's Theater, so that likely slowed my path to Fission. But I'm just speculating.

Totally OT, I am allways amused that the english word for "Geschenke" is "Gifts". In the german language "Gift" means "Poison".

Lol. That's funny. I had forgotten that word (I lived in Worms for 1-1/2 years, but that was almost 30 years ago).

 

[CKS]

That would not have been doable in that game. Everyone was friendly (except me and Russia, but I had long since wiped them out).

If you know ahead of time, at the end of the turn when the UN will be built, declare war on the owner (and the largest AI if they are different) and then ally everyone else against them. Then cross your fingers and hope that the largest AI does not change during the interturn. If you don't know ahead of time, you can't do anything.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I also got burned by an AI building the UN while I was building spaceship parts. Over the course of the game, I had conducted some warfare against nearly everyone, so they were annoyed or furious. Lesson learned ... I can't leave that aspect to chance.

I've modified my spaceship victory strategy to include a prebuild for the UN as I get ready to finish the Industrial Age, along with my efforts to build SETI and the Intenet to speed research for the last Modern Age techs.

I do like CKS's strategy, though. If you know that an AI has started the UN, investigate the city to estimate when it will finish. Investigate the city again when you think that they might have 5-7 turns to go, just in case it has grown and the shields-per-turn has increased. If they're going to finish before you, declare war and bribe other AI to join an alliance with you. Give them techs, give them luxuries for free ... they won't vote for a Civ that they are at war with.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

I went back & loaded a save, when I had 11 turns to completion of the UN. Just to see. I investigated the cities in which the UN was being built, and none of them was anywhere close. And Korea changed which city was constructing it, since the one I investigated was not the one that ultimately completed it. Seems like once someone else is building the UN, it's wise to check periodically to verify how close they are in order to implement some protective strategy. I think next time, making a beeline for Fission would be a good idea just to complete it first (assuming the game lasts that long) and prevent any votes from happening so I can finish the Space Race (or whatever else I'm working on).

 

[tjs282]

One thing that burned me in a game, is that although the AI-Civs don't 'deliberately' use prebuilds per se, they will switch from a Small Wonder (such as Battlefield Med) to a Great Wonder if they unlock the GW-tech during the SW build. I lost Hoovers to the Indians like that in my Korean Random-Emp game. And what was really annoying, was that I was the one who'd sold Gandhi Electronics in the first place (for a lot of cash, admittedly!), because I had a very dry map and thought at the time that I hadn't got anywhere to build Hoovers myself.

Turned out a couple of turns down the line that the Editor-flag 'Needs a river' doesn't actually mean 'On a river', and I could build Hoovers myself after all, in Moscow, where I'd already moved my Palace. I even thought I had a good shot at it, because Jaipur could only get like 27 SPT, assuming a Factory -- and Moscow was at 60 SPT easy (after I short-rushed and cash-rushed a Lib, a Market, and a Factory in it). Unfortunately (turned out) Jaipur was getting more like 35 SPT (because there was a CoalPlant too) -- and Gandhi had already put 350/400 shields into BatMed when I sold him Electronics. So he only needed another 300 shields or so (9T) to finish Hoovers

Probably because I was heading for a cultural victory (or space race victory, whichever came first)

Those two VCs are kind of mutually exclusive, precisely because...

, and so I was researching optional techs like music theory and free artistry in order to get J.S. Bach's Cathedral and Shakespeare's Theater, so that likely slowed my path to Fission. But I'm just speculating.

Yes.

 

[Buttercup]

Those two VCs are kind of mutually exclusive, precisely because...Yes.

And this is the aspect of the game which makes it stand out so strongly among the entire series. There are not only so many varied final destinations, each one requires a completely different approach to the game, making replayability so uniquely worthwhile.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

Those two VCs are kind of mutually exclusive, precisely because...Yes.

I don't know ... if you're going for a cultural victory, it seems like you'd have to get to Fission, get the UN in order to avoid a Diplomatic loss, and then go back and get Music Theory and Free Artistry - except that you might then miss out on some major cultural wonders (J.S. Bach's and Shakespeare's). I might try that next game, unless you have a better approach. (Obviously, going for a Space Race will involve Fission anyway, so that should not present a conflict.)

 

[tjs282]

I have to admit that I don't generally go for the Cultural-VCs, so I can't offer any specific strategies*. But some lessons are universal...

(As I might have mentioned before!) If you (general 'you', here) pick a preferred VC, but don't then actively direct your Civ's development primarily towards that goal, you may well be setting yourself up to get a nasty surprise — like being pipped for a Diplo-loss when you wanted Space, or a Dom-loss while you were hoping for 20K, or actually losing Culturally, as described in another recent post (unlike the others, I don't remember this last ever happening in any of my games, so I've no idea how @strongreaction 'managed' it!).

So taking a 'consolation prize' approach to playing Civ3 is not generally ideal, especially for the Cultural VCs, which (I've been told) you need to start prepping for as early as possible — not least because (1) for a 100K-win, you need to get there before the next-best Civ gets 50K, and (2) once an Improvement/ Wonder's been up for 1000 years (i.e. 20-25 turns for much of the BCs), its Cultural-output gets doubled — so the earlier you build them, the better.

That way, a Culture-focussed game (on a Standard-size map, anyway) then might not even go as far as Fission/UN, especially not at Chieftain, where you can build/research everything twice as fast as any one of the AI-Civs — and if it does, it should only be because you got there (long) before they did. As regards 'losing' Bachs and Shakes, while the AI-Civs do tend to prioritise the upper Education/Wonder-branch of the Mid-Age tech-tree, even at Emp they're often quite tardy with going for MusicTheory (and FreeArt), so you should easily be able to snag both those GWs long before a Diplo-loss (in the Modern Age) is even possible — especially at Chieftain.

But the main trick for any Wonder-race is really to start prebuilding while you're still researching towards the Wonder-tech: ideally, using a shield-bank that will fill shortly after you get the tech, so you can switch over and finish the Wonder off quickly, rather than waiting until you have the tech before you even start building it.

*(other than, I've read that the Byzzies are good for the 20K because they can build the cheap AA SEA-Wonders in Constantinople; and the Celts are good for 100K by whipping newly grown Agricultural citizens into half-price Temples/Cathedrals in Feudal ICS'd city-pox)

 

[CKS]

I don't know ... if you're going for a cultural victory, it seems like you'd have to get to Fission, get the UN in order to avoid a Diplomatic loss, and then go back and get Music Theory and Free Artistry - except that you might then miss out on some major cultural wonders (J.S. Bach's and Shakespeare's). I might try that next game, unless you have a better approach. (Obviously, going for a Space Race will involve Fission anyway, so that should not present a conflict.)

If you want a 20k win, get to Free Artistry ASAP - you can grow your city to size 20+ then, giving a lot more shields for every future build and a lot more beakers for future research. Trading can keep you at tech parity until the early industrial age, when the AI will spend a lot of turns on optional techs. Then you can shoot ahead in techs and get to fission before the AI. This is pretty easy at least through emperor. I play a lot of 20k games, and I've never had an issue with losing a 20k game because I couldn't get to Fission and build the UN. (I've lost many times, but generally because I was declared upon - because I didn't build enough of an army. I've won at every level through Sid, though that took a lot of tries and a really nice map.)

I do often miss out on Bach's, as Copernicus' Observatory and Newton's University seem more important. By emperor, if I get Shakespeare's Theater and Newton's University, things are good. Generally I can get Smith's or Magellan's (once the AI researches economics or navigation) once my 20k city is railed.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

(As I might have mentioned before!) If you (general 'you', here) pick a preferred VC, but don't then actively direct your Civ's development primarily towards that goal, you may well be setting yourself up to get a nasty surprise....

So taking a 'consolation prize' approach to playing Civ3 is not generally ideal, especially for the Cultural VCs, which (I've been told) you need to start prepping for as early as possible — not least because (1) for a 100K-win, you need to get there before the next-best Civ gets 50K, and (2) once an Improvement/ Wonder's been up for 1000 years (i.e. 20-25 turns for much of the BCs), its Cultural-output gets doubled — so the earlier you build them, the better.

I didn't know about the doubling of the cultural output. However, I've more than once found myself in a position of being unable to meet my original VC goal, and had to switch to another in order to have a chance at winning (I actually keep up on where I'm at as to what conditions remain possible and which don't), so I don't like to exclude anything except possibly Diplo.

As regards 'losing' Bachs and Shakes, while the AI-Civs do tend to prioritise the upper Education/Wonder-branch of the Mid-Age tech-tree, even at Emp they're often quite tardy with going for MusicTheory (and FreeArt), so you should easily be able to snag both those GWs long before a Diplo-loss (in the Modern Age) is even possible — especially at Chieftain.

But the main trick for any Wonder-race is really to start prebuilding while you're still researching towards the Wonder-tech: ideally, using a shield-bank that will fill shortly after you get the tech, so you can switch over and finish the Wonder off quickly, rather than waiting until you have the tech before you even start building it.

I still have to work on the pre-building thing - deliberately, at least. Once in a while I lose one wonder while building it, so I switch to another even if I have to change production of it away from another town due to shields.

*(other than, I've read that the Byzzies are good for the 20K because they can build the cheap AA SEA-Wonders in Constantinople; and the Celts are good for 100K by whipping newly grown Agricultural citizens into half-price Temples/Cathedrals in Feudal ICS'd city-pox)

I think (I'm not sure) all my Cultural victories have been the 20K, not the 100K (or less, for smaller maps). It seems easier to just get the 20K.

 

[Theov]

I still have to work on the pre-building thing - deliberately, at least. Once in a while I lose one wonder while building it, so I switch to another even if I have to change production of it away from another town due to shields.

Just start building the Palace or another (small) Wonder in a city you want to goal-wonder in. Just make sure you are in time with researching the tech.
Prebuilding with an improvement might be tricky; when you hurry an improvement (money/whip/trees) then you cannot swith to a Wonder as Wonders can not be hurried. Only small wonders with a Leader.
Also be careful with a other civ completing your pre-build wonder, you will have to change. If you dont have another option you will waste many shields.

 

[Lanzelot]

(only the UN-Builder and second largest empire are in the vote)

To be more precise: every nation that has one of the following, will enter the vote:

• the UN
• more than 25% territory
• more than 25% population

So the maximum number of candidates in a vote is seven.
(I verified this once by creating a hand-made map where I gave

• 3 civs lots of size-1 towns to cover 25% of the territory each, but with only a low population
• 3 more civs 2-3 size-25 metropolises, so they each get 25% population on the remaining territory
• and the last civ the UN in its capital

Playing the civ with the UN, I triggered the vote, and all seven nations ended up as a candidate... (Which of course ended in a 7-way tie, as every candidate always votes for himself. Apparently there is no way of bribing another candidate to vote for you, even if they are grateful.)

 

[vorlon_mi]

To be more precise: every nation that has one of the following, will enter the vote:

• the UN
• more than 25% territory
• more than 25% population

So the maximum number of candidates in a vote is seven.
(I verified this once by creating a hand-made map where I gave

• 3 civs lots of size-1 towns to cover 25% of the territory each, but with only a low population
• 3 more civs 2-3 size-25 metropolises, so they each get 25% population on the remaining territory
• and the last civ the UN in its capital

Playing the civ with the UN, I triggered the vote, and all seven nations ended up as a candidate... (Which of course ended in a 7-way tie, as every candidate always votes for himself. apparently there is no way of bribing another candidate to vote for you, even if they are grateful.)

What a great test! I know that Civ's won't vote for someone they are at war with. I wonder what would happen with your map if some were fighting each other? I'll bet that as soon as some of the tall civs gobbled up some of the size 1 towns, the list would shrink to 4. Some might abstain, rather than vote for a civ they are annoyed with.

 

[darski]

I never allow the diplo victory condition because I am morally opposed the the UN.
I also agree with Spock: diplomacy is all about saying, "nice doggy" while you look for a big stick. I recommend that everyone disallow that VC.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

I never allow the diplo victory condition because I am morally opposed the the UN.
I also agree with Spock: diplomacy is all about saying, "nice doggy" while you look for a big stick. I recommend that everyone disallow that VC.

I started disallowing it, but I don't always now. Basically, so long as I can build the UN, I can prevent an AI civ from sandbagging me again.

 

[Bronn Stone]

The sheep do not get to choose which wolf will rule.

This VC is always disabled when I play.