I have proof that the AI cheats.

GROW UP, PEOPLE!!

This whole business of a cheat is a joke. Yea it does - so what? How else is the game supposed to get harder as you work your way up?

As some have said before, it's nice to now have the details as to how and what.... but let's keep this all in perspective, shall we?

Dan - thanx bunches for the impact you've made on my family life..... the one I USED to have!! :lol:

Look'n forward to the patch.
 
I find it annoying that the AI cheats in order to grow in difficulty. My chess game on my palm pilot gets no extra pawns or queens on level 3+, and it whoops my ass every time. On level 1-2, I can beat it some times. It obviously gets more intelegent instead of cheating in order to get better dificulty. I understand that there are way more variables in Civ than in chess however, so I can understand why the Devs went this direction.

Does anyone know if there is also an 'intelegence' shift in the difficulties? From what I can tell, the AI acts pretty much the same on all dificulty levels, but is either handicaped or advantaged in order to balance the difficulty.

I wouldn't, by any stretch of the immagination, consider this any sort of conspiricy however. Anyone that is not aware that Civ AI has, and always will, cheat is not looking very deeply at all.

This is why I was so deeply disapointed in the lack of multiplayer. Multiplayer is the only way I know of to get a game with opponets of truly different skill levels and all the same starting resources.
 
I think there is a shift on intlegince as u increase the level from cheiften to warlord or warlord to regent.. but I only think it affects the diplomacy but I might be wrong.
 
I'm not much of a programmer, but I would guess as a semi-techno-literate guy that providing free units, especially at the beginning stages of the game, when said units will have a much greater (read: virtually exponential) impact on the game.

They probably COULD build more 'intelligence' into the AI for higher levels (hell, a really nasty thing to do would be for the game to keep stats on strats and build orders that you as a player favour, and then change orders in future games to counter), but I'm guessing this would be time, and code intensive.

Somebody used the analogy of a chess game that was able to beat him on a certain level but not on lower levels (at least not all the time). I noticed something when I fired up my own chess program. On the lower levels, the program spent less time 'thinking' (i.e. projecting possible board combinations a couple moves ahead). On higher levels, I had to wait longer for my next turn because the program did more 'thinking' (presumably because it was plotting further in advance and calculating possible board combinations even MORE moves ahead.).

Chess is a game with 64 squares and 32 playing pieces. Extrapolate the difficulty of writing an AI for chess to a game where there are up to 16 civs with dozens of units and buildings, up to HUGE map sizes and all kinds of variables for the 'squares'. Sure, you might be able to program a wicked cool AI that would be much more competitive with humans, but it'd take a day to process each turn, and you'd need to load a new 'AI CD' every time the next computer player was to move.

I'm rambling a bit here, but I guess my point is that it's more EFFICIENT from a game creator's perspective to do things like reduce build times and give free units, because it simply leverages the existing scripts and code for the AI, but makes it innately more powerful (and therefore more challenging) with minimal coding effort.

Callahan
:cool:
 
I can't argue with that, like I said above, I understand the reasons they went for a 'cheat' style difficulty system. I couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag, so I will accept the idea that it would be too burdensome. Chess AI's are very good, because yes, chess is a much simpler game. (at least in number of peices) However, I think there could be at least SOME degree of thinking ahead or learning in Civ.

There has to be some way, for example to make the AI able to invade another continent. Ever since Civ1, the AI is absoutly incapable of invading another continent with more than 1 transport a turn. They NEVER attempt a D-day style invasion that would be needed to actualy do any good. (has anyone ever seen the computer attack with a real force across water?) They have 200 units swarming around on their land, 10 transports sailing all over the seas, they are at war with me, and they never think of attacking with enough force to take more than a single city. (They usualy land in a stupid spot and fail to do even that) For 200 turns they send a transport of valuable troops every other turn, all of which are slaughtered the turn they land on the shore. Over and over and over and over, every game. There HAS to be something better than this. (I especialy like the idea of an AI that 'learns' to anticipate a players strats between games, that would be great a great option to be able to enable.)

For me it is all about satisfaction. The reason I play these games are for fun. (of course) I find it far more satisfying and way more worth my time to loose to an opponet that out-played me on equal footing, rather than to loose a sword fight to a 4 year old with a bazooka.

These are reasons Civ needs multiplayer. 'I' is better than 'AI' any day of the week.
 
To really put the chess analogy in perspective, consider this:

Background - most AI algorithyms basically come down to selective brute force. You try a move, see what the result of it is, then pretend to be the opponent and see what move they should make, and so on, hopefully taking the shortcut of not continuing too far down paths that don't look likely to be beneficial. This all relies on a few things - a good heuristic to score a game position, and a way to quickly try out all possible future moves from a position (usually this boils down to the heuristic being fast to compute, and the number of moves being small). WIth this in mind, consider the following games:

In checkers, there is a very low branching factor, as there are generally under 10 valid moves in any board position. A prograsm has been written that plays a "perfect" end game of checkers - ie, always makes the best move. The end game of checkers is thus considered a solved problem (in the same way as to most people tic-tac-toe is a solved problem ... two competent players should always draw against each other). It's basically jsut database lookups, nothing exciting.

In a typical chess game, the branching factor is relatively "low" - in any given position, there are usually only 10 - 20 valid moves. At this sort of level, a very good computer (eg deep blue) can compete against and beat the best humans, but it's pretty borderline. The heuristics involved here usually involve valuing each piece, and also to an extent board position.

In a typical game of go (which uses a 19x19 board unless i'm mistaken), there is a large branching factor, although I'm not familiar enough with the game to hazard a guess at what it might be. Suffice to say it's much higer than chess. Computer go players suck versus good huamn players ... they dont even come close to winning.

In a huge map game of civ 3, the board is 180x180, although this is slightly misleading, as the tiles are marked such that only (even, even) or (odd, odd) pairs can exist, thus halving the number of tiles. Even so, the board is huge in comparison to the other games. Added to this, there are up to 15 AI players, each of whom might control hundreds of pieces (units). Unlike other games under discussion, the AI has the oppourtunity to move most or all of these each turn, not just one, further increasing the branching factor. Additionally, with railroads, some moves are ZERO cost, making the potential moves for each unit pretty huge! The AI is expected to move all these units as part of a coherant strategy, as well as managing cties in such a way that enhance their unit strategy, as well as trading effectively, as well as potentially persuing any number of other short, mediam and long term goals (culture, tech research, etc). Even coming up with a good heuristic to rate a board position is hard.Let alone making it something that is simply computed. Plus the huge number of possible combinations (ie high branching factor) makes normal brute force methods impractical.

To write an AI that is even remotely optimal at such a game would not only take years to write, it would take years to run per turn in the mid to late game.

Firaxis have done a pretty damn good job making the AI seem as smart as it does, but basically it's very linear and reacts pretty simply to situations. It doesn't figure out what would be "best", it simply sees one thing happen and performs whatever set response(s) it has been programmed to do. Hence you see silly things like being able to move your units back and forth and having it chase them from city to city, never getting in range to attack (which of course is supposed to be fixed in the patch). Until we made some pretty fundamental breakthroughs in AI research (quantum computing maybe? I can't see how to make it managable on traditional computing systems), we can expect the AI will always be more artificial than intelligent. ;)

All this is a good argument for why we need MP, imo. ;)
 
Great detective work, Sman! I couldn't care less that it cheats. You don't like it, play at Regent. It IS good to know in terms of strategy and what we have to keep in mind to beat the AI at these levels.

e
 
You are right, they have gone a good way further in making it at least seem like it is thinking. The diplomacy, for example, is far 'smarter' than civII. I gotta give credit where it is due.

I guess the problem I have is with what their scripted responses are then. I repeat, there HAS to be SOME way to teach the computer how to invade a continent. This is my biggest beef with the AI. If you are an Australia style empire in CivIII, you are invincable. Not because of amazing skill or power, but because the computer will never bother to defeat you regardless of how easy it would be.
 
Strategically, yes, it is very hard for a computer to compete well, since it usually necessitates a scoring algorithm for a game position that captures strategic value, which is very difficult to do.

But computers are very good at implementing tactics (and discovering tactics, in a limited board position). Sure, it might fail strategically and pick a bad time or place to invade, but it should be easy for the AI to actually carry out an invasion. If nothing else, pre-nukes, it could just stack 10 transports and the escort in one square and send them all over at once.

Hurkyl
 
I have noticed that they do a much better job of stacking on land. I had an army of 12 tanks, 10 mech infintry, and an army attack me from the north while 5 tanks, 6 mech infintry, and an army attacked from the east. I remember a similar 'trickle' of 2-3 units a turn in CivII, and am very happy to see them do some intelegent attacks on land. If only they would learn to stack their navy it could go a long way to solving this problem.
 
Originally posted by Gyre


Will that cover all the AI planning cheats such as looking at complete city garrisons, seeing units through fog of war, knowledge of unexplored map areas, etc... ? It does that at all difficulty levels and seems like it would really break things to disable it in the editor.

How do you know that it does these things?
 
Originally posted by TAB443556
I think it sux that The AI have to cheat at higher level just to make it hard. I think the building speed is ok but getting free units isnt. You would think that just the building speed would make it almost impossible to win on deity if you have good AI

How would you propose creating an AI that was better than a human player? If Firaxis were capable of coding to beat a Turing test, then I'm sure they'd be making a lot more money in military and business computing.
 
I'm not asking for HAL2000 or Data from Star Trek. Just an AI that can figure out if your attack with 1 tank vs 5 mech infintry on a mountain didn't work the last 20 times, it probably won't work this time.

It sucks IMHO that the way to get leaders is put a guy on a mountain in enemy teritory and wait, knowing the enemy will suicidaly throw themselves at you. It is nearly unstopable if you do it right, and they will throw their entire empire against one defensive troop in a futile attempt to remove one pointless unit that the shouldn't even care about as much as the 20 tanks on their boarders. I have seen empires fall because they spent SO much resource on that one troop, never understanding that marines and normal inf attacking mech inf on a mountain is just not gonna work. They don't even dare move any of their ton of artilery from 20 un-threatened cities to take care of this guy. Just send all their new units at the man on the mountian, virtualy droping their efective production to 0. The predictability of the AI is the problem. I can count on any government of any civ to react the same to this strat. I have often have to police myself to keep the game fun.


Disclaimer: No I don't think the game is total bunk, I am just interested in making a good game better. So please don't waste your breath on pointless, 'Just go play the sims ya panzy,' comments.
 
I am sorry to inform you that AI cheats in warlord to. do:eek:

I always play at level warlord, and there is alot of cheating going on even doh they say there are not..!

On of the new things ( things there was not going on i Civ II ) is that AI now can load of units from a galley TWO spaces away from shore ( cost ). :confused:



-I have meansioned this before, but I must write it again in hope of a better answer or changes.

Sometimes when you attack, let us say with a bowman ( vet. ), and you attack a veteran warrior ( just an example ) you can win witout losing any energipoints AT ALL!

Then if you do the same a little later, even with a better unit, the warrior suddently is able to kill something like tree of much better units, witout casing any harm to it self?!?!!

-And this is not because it is fortified or placed at a mountien!
:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
You can compain about the AI cheating all you want. I know I whine a bit about it too. The thing is if the AI cheats because it HAS to. If it didn't the game would be too easy and then we would all be whining about how simple a game this is.
 
Originally posted by Flynn


How do you know that it does these things?

Looking at city garrisons- when the AI is invading by sea, stack two nearby coastal cities with approximately the same amount of units. Move a unit out of City #1 and watch the AI turn its fleet towards it. Put unit back in City #1 and move unit out of City #2. Fleet turns around and sails towards City #2! Even if the enemy couldn't see your units moving in and out and even if moving the unit doesn't change the unit displayed on top of the city. You could keep doing this preventing them from ever landing but that will be fixed in the patch. On land invasions the AI will also beeline for poorly defended cities far away even though it should only know the best defender of a city- not the whole garrison.

Seeing units through fog- While at war, place a few workers on squares near the enemy front but covered by their fog of war. Enemy units will abandon their city defense to run over and capture your workers.

Knowledge of unexplored map- Put a ship on auto-explore mode. It will eventually jump from sea->sea where the other side had not been explored and could not be seen from any sea square on your side. But it'll never place a ship in danger of sinking so it isn't just randomly guessing about those spots.

Respawning civs- On the trade screen, verify that a civ only has one more city. Take the city and early in the game, the civ will sometimes immediately develop a new city a few dozen squares away. Possible to disable this in older versions of Civ.

Teleporting settlers- Start close to an enemy civ when barbarians are really raging. Rage rage! Watch the first enemy settler pop out and get smashed. An enemy city will sometimes immediately appear a few squares away.
 
Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Here's a hot tip:
When the patch is released, go directly to the editor and hit the "Difficulty Levels" tab. This will settle, once and for all, what bonuses the AI gets on each difficulty levels.

Yeah, this is listed right in the readme.txt:

Editor: Added Barbarian Combat Bonus to difficulty level tab.
Editor: Added Cost Factor to difficulty level tab.
Editor: Added AI unit support bonus to difficulty level tab.
Editor: Added AI bonus starting units to difficulty level tab.
Editor: Added AI max. govt. transition time to difficulty level tab.
Editor: Added corruption modifier to difficulty level tab.

So these are all the bonuses they get and that are now editable w/ patch.

e
 
Yeah the AI does cheat, its not really cheating if they were programmed to do that. But I mean you attack a Civ and destroy them and then the next thing is there moved (even without the tech to build ships) to an island and now there Civ is there. :mad:
Now that is what I call cheating.
 
Yes the AI Cheats and the game is fixed. Go to war and watch the number of AI units increase geometrically. Wipe out the last AI civ city and watch a new one appear near the south pole. Attack a spearman with an Elite Cossack and watch the Cossack run...
 
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