I need some help with warring in BNW

[Greasy Dave]

So I haven't had a lot of time to play BNW unfortunately. Had time for an immortal shoshone game. Which was fun but I played a safeish tradition small empire game.

I've had some spare hours again recently and I've been trying to get out of my comfort zone and get back into warring. I love it when it goes well, but right now in BNW it's not going at all.

I've been testing out ASsyria - and TBH I just can't get warmongering to work in BNW. Partly - the Ai seems to have improved massively - Or is that just me?

First game round about turn 50 or 60 i'd taken a city from Nappy my nearest and weakest neighbour - when I got hit on the flank by the Celts with an enormous force of mixed melee, range and horse. IT'd got its pathfinding down perfectly. Melee in the front. Range behind. I'd got about 6 archers and two siege towers. Nowhere near enough. And the Celts took my exposed flank easily. The AI sent the melee and horse on my flank archers.

Second game went better initially. I took out America by turn 90. DOWed Poland my next neighbour. Took out his poorly organised army. Then a huge force from Egypt (who hated me) picked its way between my lines, heading South where there was ONLY my capital. Expecting sneak attack from Egypt, i DOWed, and then had to face two armies. Much harder.

So the specific problems I'm facing:
1. Money, obviously. That's a hard one in the early game.But especially when you can't get DOF's thanks to the diplo hits in point 4.
2. My teching was slowed massively compared to pre-BNW games - and also compared to the Shoshone game. It took me an age to get to the National ..what do you call it -who's name I can't remember (after turn 100) - because I'd beelined mathematics for the siege tower and composite bows.
3. The Ai seems to have smartened up - using horses well against my archers. Taking out my army of archers, an archer at a time with sequenced attacks of multiple horse units.
4. Warmongering seriously annoys ALL my neighbours (which is a good thing) but it makes life extremely hard for warmongers vis a vis money and selling luxes. After I'd taken down America. I had lots of luxes, but noone to trade with :-(
5. Annoyed Ai seems willing to help it's "friend" when it comes to helping out by attacking the player. Again, this is great, but it's taken me by surprise. It used to be possible to bootstomp the map with an army of 8 archers. No longer.

So, am I doing something wrong. Or is it, as I am seeing, a lot harder to go domination in BNW? Especially early domination?

Does anyone have any tips for the would be warmonger?
thanks

 

[joshua43214]

I have been doing a lot of early warmongering lately, but the fall patch seems to have made it less optimal than doing a midgame rush to x-bows or artillery.

I never have the kind of issues you are having with getting DoW'd from the other end. Sure the AI gets fussy about warmongering, and gets really fussy over taking capitols, but not to the point where they DoW.

How many cities are you settling? where are you settling them? City placement is the only thing I can think of that would push that AI over the edge into a DoW. You really only want 1 or 2 expos for early warmongering, and 1 should be placed forward on your first victim, and the other either well to the rear or forward settled on your second victim a bit later.

As for you gold issues, 8 early archers is twice the number you need. 4 early range units and 2 melee units make the core of an early war army. Also, do not build infrastructure like gardens, water mills, etc.

 

[ZPG_Lazarus]

Hello!

I have a few warmongering tips:

1) Only Fight What You Can Win

Don't let the AI pressure you into war. A domination win the Classical Age counts just the same as win in the Modern Age. The point is, why war unless its necessary?

Fix: Unless you absolutely, no s*** know you can win, don't war.If you can, wait until you've got a tech lead, a steady income, and surplus happiness before you start.

2) Situational Awareness

If you want to war, be aware of how your neighbors will react. Why take out Germany when a Hostile Shaka is on the opposite side of the map?

Fix: Either make friendships and war together with the AI or overrun the map at one time. I usually wait till Rocket Artillery so I can hit multiple civs back-to-back.

 

[Cromagnus]

It may seem like the obvious choice to capture cities early with Assyria, but their UU's 50% bonus is still relevant and useful for a long time. Eventually the AI will target it and one-shot kill it, but you can still do a medieval rush with them. You don't *NEED* to war early. But it's fun. ;-)

The trick is that post-patch, the AI makes MASSIVE armies and is much more aggressive. So, if you move your whole army to one flank to attack a neighbor and you have a warlike neighbor on the other side, you're probably in trouble.

Solutions:

1) DoW the aggressive civ unless you have natural terrain boundaries that will keep him away from you.
2) In general, DoW the civ with the most approachable terrain. (I can't emphasize this enough)
3) Park your capital on a hill behind a river. (It's worth moving your settler)
4) Joshua is right imho, build 4 range, 2 melee. And 2 siege towers. (Those you build last anyway due to timing)

Consider building a second warrior instead of a scout. *gasp* Yes, people will probably rant at me for this, but unit maintenance costs are a big problem in BNW, for warmongering anyway. You can either have two scouts + warrior or 1 scout, 2 warriors, OR 1 warrior, 2 siege towers for the same gpt... I dunno, still playing around with this. Early warmongering is money-limited, as you pointed out, and the scouts earn you a lot of money from meeting CS and AI embassies, maybe as much as they cost. Early warmongering is just nerfed, sorry. But I like the challenge. ;-)

EDIT: Re diplo... if you DoW the first person you meet as soon as you meet them, it *greatly* reduces warmongering penalties. Same goes for DoWing a CS. People who meet you *and your opponent* after you're in a war don't hate you.

 

[Cromagnus]

I usually wait till Rocket Artillery so I can hit multiple civs back-to-back.

So you're basically going for a Science Victory.

I mean, starting your conquest at Rocketry? I dunno, that doesn't feel like Domination to me... don't get me wrong, I enjoy the turtle science approach too, but let's call it what it is. ;-)

 

[ZPG_Lazarus]

So you're basically going for a Science Victory.

I mean, starting your conquest at Rocketry? I dunno, that doesn't feel like Domination to me... don't get me wrong, I enjoy the turtle science approach too, but let's call it what it is. ;-)

I get what you're saying. But if you've got a tech lead, warring with rockets while your opponents have arti or cannon makes conquering so much easier.

Same thing for plastics. If you got that tech lead, that three-tech jump from riflemen to infantry is awesome.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Hello!

I have a few warmongering tips:

1) Only Fight What You Can Win

Don't let the AI pressure you into war. A domination win the Classical Age counts just the same as win in the Modern Age. The point is, why war unless its necessary?

Fix: Unless you absolutely, no s*** know you can win, don't war.If you can, wait until you've got a tech lead, a steady income, and surplus happiness before you start.

I'd actually disagree with this. Assuming by winning a war you mean capturing cities and all that, you don't necessarily have to do that in order to wage a successful campaign; just being a thorn in an otherwise competitive AI's side is enough. Make him build units, pillage his improvements, capture his civilians. This is probably the best way to wage war in the early game regardless since things are weighed so heavily in favor of the defenders before Artillery.

 

[Greasy Dave]

You don't *NEED* to war early. But it's fun. ;-)

1) DoW the aggressive civ unless you have natural terrain boundaries that will keep him away from you.
2) In general, DoW the civ with the most approachable terrain. (I can't emphasize this enough)
3) Park your capital on a hill behind a river. (It's worth moving your settler)
4) Joshua is right imho, build 4 range, 2 melee. And 2 siege towers. (Those you build last anyway due to timing)

EDIT: Re diplo... if you DoW the first person you meet as soon as you meet them, it *greatly* reduces warmongering penalties. Same goes for DoWing a CS. People who meet you *and your opponent* after you're in a war don't hate you.

I like the early wars because they're fun. Plus I've got the siege towers. I'm trying to enjoy them.

2. and 3. I'm doing already - I've been playing Civ V since vanilla - (I have deity wins on vanilla and G and K - that's not to brag but just to explain I know a little about what is good play-I'm not a noob to the game. I'm just trying to understand the way the AI plays in BNW - because old tactics definitely don't work)
4. Interesting. I'll keep that in mind. TBH my first couple of cities have been using only four bows and a siege tower. But I then built up my troops more...and went onto 8 bows - that being what worked best at G and K.
1. Before I started my DOW fest, I had DOF's with everyone but my first victim and Egypt. Egypt was always neutral. BUT - he was on the far side of the continent. So I couldn't go for him. Instead it had to be America who was my immediate neighbor. Normally I'd DOW the one I have the worst relationship with

The tip about DOWing whoever you meet first is a REALLY good one. I'll try that next time.

I can play and win a turtle SV, with maybe an early war and a medieval war (That's how I played the SHoshone) - not outright aggressive from the start, and mostly peaceful. But I'd like to try something out of my comfort zone. Something I don't know all the moves on.

I guess the thing is, I listen to polycast, and the guys on there, especially Madjinn (Obviously, he's a much better player than myself) talking about conquering and conquering and I'm wondering how they do it. (Maybe I should drop them an email and ask). Because I can conquer. But then I can't sell my luxes. Because noone on the continent likes me.

And even if I can take my first two cities with a small army. I've found that eventually a fairly massive one shows up...or my next victim has seen the danger and tooled up by the time my force rolls up to his borders. And eventually I need a decent sized defense force to fight with (8 units mixed) - but without the money from luxes, that doesn't work too well.

I've also found that the science hit from extra cities, although, it isn't crippling, does have an effect in the early game. I seem to be losing about a turn per city. Eventually I should overcome that, when I've got the conquered cities up and running. But my teching to Education was at least 20 to 40 turns slower, partly because I beelined maths AND CB's before philosophy. Partly because of the incremental tech hits I was taking. Ad the free tech didn't do much to help me catch up.

I guess my two biggest problems are - how to war early on a continents map and keep at least one or two AI civs friendly...is that even possible?

And how to avoid the tech slowdown?

I'll try DOWing the first civ I meet, next game. That might be an interesting way to deal with the diplo hit.

 

[joshua43214]

And even if I can take my first two cities with a small army. I've found that eventually a fairly massive one shows up...or my next victim has seen the danger and tooled up by the time my force rolls up to his borders. And eventually I need a decent sized defense force to fight with (8 units mixed) - but without the money from luxes, that doesn't work too well.

I've also found that the science hit from extra cities, although, it isn't crippling, does have an effect in the early game. I seem to be losing about a turn per city. Eventually I should overcome that, when I've got the conquered cities up and running. But my teching to Education was at least 20 to 40 turns slower, partly because I beelined maths AND CB's before philosophy. Partly because of the incremental tech hits I was taking. Ad the free tech didn't do much to help me catch up.

My core early army starts with 6 units and expands to 8 or 9 almost all the time. I want 3 to 4 for city bombardment, and 2 to 3 for support. I then make a second army and conquer the other direction.

You do not take a science hit for puppets. Either raze everything, or make puppets. You should not be annexing cities until you can easily absorb the gpt for courthouses anyway.

 

[Cromagnus]

My core early army starts with 6 units and expands to 8 or 9 almost all the time. I want 3 to 4 for city bombardment, and 2 to 3 for support. I then make a second army and conquer the other direction.

You do not take a science hit for puppets. Either raze everything, or make puppets. You should not be annexing cities until you can easily absorb the gpt for courthouses anyway.

I thought puppets had -25% science? I mean, it's still extra science, but the way I look at it is this: +4 unhappiness per city. +extra unhappiness for occupied city population. -25% science for that city. Puppeted cities limit your total population because of happiness, and produce less science for the same population. Science is a measure of population, hence, puppet cities limit your science.

@Greasy Dave: I think BNW post-patch warfare is very different. The AI spams units and is more aggressive. I'm still adjusting, frankly.

RE: melee, I'm not suggesting you float 2 warrior, 2 scout, 2 siege tower and 4 archers, hehe. You can put a scout in range in cover to absorb damage early. They count as melee until the AI gets CBs or walls. Especially if you take survivalism. That boosts them a lot as a damage shield. But you really need a warrior to block their melee units from attacking your archers and towers, and to capture a heavily damaged unit before it uses a heal promotion.

The reason I suggest two siege towers is that a) one might get damaged. b) they both benefit from the siege tower +50% if there are two. (I'm fairly certain that with only one siege tower it doesn't get the +50%, however, now I'm starting to doubt myself)

Plus, overwhelming force to limit casualties is always nice. You can roll that second and third city much faster with 2 towers. /shrug

Also, I don't know if there's as much need to beeline Construction after Mathematics... Assyria gets more beakers from conquest if they work the bottom of the tree, researching the cheapest techs and stealing the expensive ones. Of course, you still need to focus on certain key techs to succeed, but I'd probably finish off Ancient Era techs before taking Construction. You don't need CBs because your siege tower turns archers into CBs. ;-)

 

[Greasy Dave]

You do not take a science hit for puppets. Either raze everything, or make puppets. You should not be annexing cities until you can easily absorb the gpt for courthouses anyway.

Are you sure about that? I'm fairly certain that each new city, puppeted or annexed or settled gives you the 5 percent tech penalty. I have been watching my turns to the next tech every time I take a city...if it's at 8 turns before I take the city. After I take the city, next turn it's still 8 turns left. So I'm losing a turn per city. The penalty is wiped away as soon as the city comes out of unrest - if the city has a library in it and a high enough pop.

 

[Greasy Dave]

@Greasy Dave: I think BNW post-patch warfare is very different. The AI spams units and is more aggressive. I'm still adjusting, frankly.

RE: melee, I'm not suggesting you float 2 warrior, 2 scout, 2 siege tower and 4 archers, hehe. You can put a scout in range in cover to absorb damage early. They count as melee until the AI gets CBs or walls. Especially if you take survivalism. That boosts them a lot as a damage shield. But you really need a warrior to block their melee units from attacking your archers and towers, and to capture a heavily damaged unit before it uses a heal promotion.

The reason I suggest two siege towers is that a) one might get damaged. b) they both benefit from the siege tower +50% if there are two. (I'm fairly certain that with only one siege tower it doesn't get the +50%, however, now I'm starting to doubt myself)

Plus, overwhelming force to limit casualties is always nice. You can roll that second and third city much faster with 2 towers. /shrug

Also, I don't know if there's as much need to beeline Construction after Mathematics... Assyria gets more beakers from conquest if they work the bottom of the tree, researching the cheapest techs and stealing the expensive ones. Of course, you still need to focus on certain key techs to succeed, but I'd probably finish off Ancient Era techs before taking Construction. You don't need CBs because your siege tower turns archers into CBs. ;-)

There's a lot of good advice here. I'm thinking of taking a couple of spearmen with me next time. I've discovered that the AI has become quite adept at using combined horsemen attacks to take down my archers one at a time, one a turn..and stay out of range of the other archers. The AI has definitely improved it's game.

I think my biggest problem really is trying to war early and somehow keep decent diplo relations with at least one civ....that's my real cruncher right now. I can bootstomp my neighbour and take his luxes. But noone wants to trade with me. (Which is good, it's the way it should be...but it means I need to think my strat through more). On pangea's you usually get a couple of civs who will hate the cv you are stomping, but I'm trying to stay on continents right now.

I'm definitely going to try the suggestion of DOWing the first innocent I meet.

Thanks for the other tips.

 

[Cromagnus]

I'm definitely going to try the suggestion of DOWing the first innocent I meet.

Somehow I feel bad for suggesting this now haha!

Also, pick your target cities based on luxuries if possible. You don't need trading partners as much as you need trade routes, if you have at least 1 unique luxury per captured city. And check the city screen. I raze or sell cities that don't have happiness buildings and/or libraries/universities unless they have a unique luxury.

Also, it's inevitable that you have to take a break from conquest eventually. Even if you sell most of the cities you capture, manage to avoid taking any losses, and somehow manage to defend your now isolated captured capitals, your units will eventually become irrelevant unless you stop to focus on tech for a while. I mean, it's almost impossible to win Domination without Industrial Era units, and very hard without Modern. On Deity at least. I've come pretty close but couldn't get the last two capitals. On Standard. I think you can do it on Marathon, maybe even Epic.

So, you have to think about executing your Domination as a series of rushes. Get new tech, upgrade,rush-buy,build units, capture capitals, then rest. Rinse, repeat.

At the very least you'll need to take a break to deal with happiness issues, but also to let your warmonger penalty subside.

Here's a trick I've found *really* useful lately: After DoWing the first person you meet, you meet someone else, and they don't think you're a warmonger yet, so they make DoF. Then you capture a junk city from your neighbor. Sell it to your friend. Even if they end up not liking you, as long as they don't attack, now you have *safe* trade routes for tech and gold. Unlike CS, they won't turn on you if your target allies them. Just in case, I pick a city with no unique luxuries that can't expand to cut off my roads, and if possible, one that can't grow effectively.

This little trick has really boosted my early warmongering tech rates. It's the cure for the dilemma I used to have where only one neighbor was close and I wanted to war on him but that cut off the huge tech advantage from early TRs. Total WIN! :-D

 

[njmfff]

I get what you're saying. But if you've got a tech lead, warring with rockets while your opponents have arti or cannon makes conquering so much easier.

Same thing for plastics. If you got that tech lead, that three-tech jump from riflemen to infantry is awesome.

Yeah, but good use of ZoC and terrain is all you really need. You can clean half the map with well placed Artillery and few meat shields.

by the time you got rockets, you might as well continue to be "peaceful" with science victory.

It's same with bombers, they are awesome, but I usually avoid using them (only for defense) because they make combat quite boring... or if I use them, I'll use 2 city bombers, 2 unit bomber and 2-3 fighters for sweep\intercept on AI that gets out of control easily if left unchecked. (like Alex, Cathy).

It's much more fun to use mix of all units, not just bombers to win the war, because they don't require much tactics except recognizing when you need to stop attacking in order to heal..

 

[joshua43214]

I thought puppets had -25% science? I mean, it's still extra science, but the way I look at it is this: +4 unhappiness per city. +extra unhappiness for occupied city population. -25% science for that city. Puppeted cities limit your total population because of happiness, and produce less science for the same population. Science is a measure of population, hence, puppet cities limit your science.

I just double checked and the tool tip does indeed include puppets for the -5% science penalty - I must have missed the change or was simply confused.

A puppet produces less unhappiness than an annexed city unless you build courthouses, and courthouses are a big drain on your early economy. I do not care about the -25% culture and science, I did not take the city for either culture or science, I took it because it was in the way of my path to victory. I only annex when I need a forward base or when they start to build things that cost me more gold than they produce.

I pretty much raze every city I capture unless I sell it to the AI. Sure they AI will come in and resettle the land, but that is usually not a problem. Trying to have a massive puppet/annexed empire in BNW is really hard until you get the tenets from Autocracy for free +3 happy courthouses. By that time I am usually 3/4 done with the game anyway so even it is marginal.

 

[Cromagnus]

I'm starting to think less of DoWing the first person I meet. Post-patch, the diplomacy hit for taking multiple cities is so bad that I now think the most efficient way to do early warmongering is to pick and choose which cities you're going to capture very carefully.

Sure, DoWing someone before either of you meet anyone else means that no one else will hate you for DoWing, but it also means you're DoWing before really scouting out the land.

I'm starting to favor waiting longer to DoW for two reasons:

1) To know for sure which capitals are easiest to take... meaning I have to meet all my neighbors, and possibly find a spot to settle a second city, before I DoW.

2) If you wait until turn 50, 60 or even 70 to DoW, you *know who the wonder whore is*. I really want to take a capital with good wonders. Colossus, Petra, Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens, etc. Those are almost all built before turn 80.

The problem is, it makes it harder if you wait that long, and you want your units getting XP in the meantime. So, I may still DoW the first person I meet, and farm XP off them, then make peace and go to war on the person who's the best target.

Another thing is what I like to call the Germany factor. Someone (Germany, Alex, Monte, Shaka) is going to march troops over to you at some point and if you're in a war with someone else when they do you're screwed. So, waiting until a bit later can help, because if you've already captured cities when they start their march, they don't like you enough to accept bribes to DoW someone else.

I recently played a game with Assyria where I captured every Shoshone city by turn 60. I had to take the capital last because he forward-settled towards me with cities that blocked the only approach to his capital, and he was the only nearby civ. Because the capital was his last city, I got the Extreme Warmonger tag for taking it. On turn 61 everyone denounced me and Germany DoW'd. My army was in no shape to fight back, as siege towers are useless on defense and he had horsemen.

So, from now on, I'm not taking those other cities. I'm pillaging them and going around. Or picking on a different civ, one whose capital is easier to get to.

The patch has really changed the way warring works.

 

[AGNT009]

Tell me what Im doing wrong. Civ5 is my first Civ. Have all expansions. Been trying to win single player with Huge world map, 12-14 civs, and this last attempt shrunk CS to 7 so AI couldnt ass kiss so many. This last runthrough I didnt expand so much (I love to hold all of the United States territory as Washington)(All my civs have been Washington, Im a patriot what can I say) This last time I only swated down attacks from Rome, as he was building cities every few hexes in central US, and Japan occupying east US, I started in Alaska and had west coast. I managed my money best ever, was hardly ever in debt, even keeping Caesar off me. When I realized I had no oil, I expanded into unclaimed Australia, New Zealand, and another island to get 15 barrels. Nice of me since I could have jerked it away from others. The world was bickering and waring with each other. Im pressing Science harder than ever, neglecting religion, had a few wonders, used all my spies on CS and was qctually UN host first attempt ever. All of a sudden Ottomans start turning in rocket boosters. He's fighting a war against two civs, and in serious debt with 5 cities. I press science even harder, making a profit with treasury in hundreds and like 700+ beakers. No way that fat lard can launch first. Ive played this perfectly. That fat ass launched first. How is it AI can have it all, war and defend with ease, have wonders, and launch way before me every attempt Ive done, from beginning era to information. How can they be so in debt and pump out sci for a win? Im hesitant to play humans when I cant get my first SP win yet. Help!

 

[joshua43214]

Tell me what Im doing wrong. Civ5 is my first Civ. Have all expansions. Been trying to win single player with Huge world map, 12-14 civs, and this last attempt shrunk CS to 7 so AI couldnt ass kiss so many. This last runthrough I didnt expand so much (I love to hold all of the United States territory as Washington)(All my civs have been Washington, Im a patriot what can I say) This last time I only swated down attacks from Rome, as he was building cities every few hexes in central US, and Japan occupying east US, I started in Alaska and had west coast. I managed my money best ever, was hardly ever in debt, even keeping Caesar off me. When I realized I had no oil, I expanded into unclaimed Australia, New Zealand, and another island to get 15 barrels. Nice of me since I could have jerked it away from others. The world was bickering and waring with each other. Im pressing Science harder than ever, neglecting religion, had a few wonders, used all my spies on CS and was qctually UN host first attempt ever. All of a sudden Ottomans start turning in rocket boosters. He's fighting a war against two civs, and in serious debt with 5 cities. I press science even harder, making a profit with treasury in hundreds and like 700+ beakers. No way that fat lard can launch first. Ive played this perfectly. That fat ass launched first. How is it AI can have it all, war and defend with ease, have wonders, and launch way before me every attempt Ive done, from beginning era to information. How can they be so in debt and pump out sci for a win? Im hesitant to play humans when I cant get my first SP win yet. Help!

Fewer tall cities are better than lots of smaller cities.
Why did you settle more cities just for oil? Oil gives you nothing useful in exchange for the slower science and added unhappiness for extra cities.
The only resource you need is aluminum and you can get enough from the recycling center.

There are a ton of threads up with various plans for getting a fast science victory, they are all about the same. Make a 3 or 4 city empire, manage your citizens and grow very tall, get the national college up asap (T90ish), get education asap (T115ish), get to plastics, get to satellites first, build the Hubble.

EDIT: learn to play standard Pangaea on standard speed before moving to other maps. Pangaea is better for science victories.
Also, do not remove city states, this hurts you a lot more than the AI

 

[AGNT009]

Im American, I love oil, lol. Also I gotta have them bombers for defense. If I dont, seem aggressive neighbor will. And I love building coastal cities to have a medium navy if needed. In my 6 Civ attempts some aggressive Civ always thinks you are too close and come after you. You just cant play isolationist. But the AI always seems to pick one Civ that quietly skirts most of the fray and launches a spaceship before you. I may be biting off more than I can chew as a Civ noob, but not dominating an earth continent layout isnt as rewarding to me. Im a Risk board game lover, so that earth layout is too good to pass up.

 

[joshua43214]

Well, if your playing on Immortal (what I gather from your OP), then the reason you are getting DoW'd is probably because you pushed out a pile of cities. The AI gets fussy if you settle more than 4 cities early on a standard map...

Currently warring in BNW kinda sucks. The pacifists have taken over and trying to get an early war going ends up getting DoW'd by every half the time. Just stay tuned into this forum, there are a bunch of active threads where people are trying to find the right balance for early warmongering. The other option is to drop down to Emperor or King and just do as you please