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I still find Espionage to be pretty offensive

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by CaptainPatch, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. sonicmyst

    sonicmyst Emperor

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    I am fine with the current number of spies / counterspies because too much will equate to more micromanagement. As for spies being too offensive, I think that is the intention. Counterspying is almost useless unless you really find pillaged IZ / Spaceport too infuriating.

    What I would hope for more spy promotions and spy mechanics that are not just about pillaging.
     
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  2. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger Prince

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    If spying is weighted heavily toward offense oriented espionage, then the solution is obvious.

    Stop trying to protect yourself, and focus instead on stealing more from your enemies than they steal from you. If defensive espionage is weak for you, then it will also be weak for them. Take advantage of that!
     
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  3. Naeshar

    Naeshar Warlord

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    The OP is arguing with his understanding. I think the fantasy of espionage in Civ6 is quite accurate.
    You have (Special) Agents 001 to 007 available. These are not your regular office workers and police officers in the streets. They do the actual thrilling mission and risk life. They actively follow clues and go after the baddies. While there is certain level of baseline security (as there is a chance of failure even for best spy), and you can spend a policy slot for the police state. The defensive use of spies is not preferred, unless you need to protect critical facilities (spaceport, national heritage, atomic bomb labs, ...). Who cares if someone steals 100 gold from a provincial bank, right? That's no job for a 007.

    The espionage is intended to be a special agent fantasy rather than your micromanagement heaven. A security network might become a mechanic, but I think it's too boring. At least when compared to an elite spy.
     
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  4. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Well... The spies are white after all. I think Firaxis thinks only English or Russians can spy effectively. :) or French now in civ6. I still remember the spy model in civ2.

    I'm okay with the spy game. Defensively we have more options now. I accept the loss of a few tech boosts. I know which targets to really protect. Though I will admit I haven't tried them in multiplayer, which I'm sure is more challenging, as are most things in multiplayer.
     
  5. Karmah

    Karmah King Supporter

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    Spies protect their surroundings. The ennemy more or less always target the same city (capital or the zimbabwe one in my case) . Plus now spies have a promotion to protect the whole city. Defense has never been an issue for me. (immortal , deity)
    I usually have one defensive spy. Two when spaceport comes into play. And I try to have my spaceports adjacent to each other ,or to the commercial district that is already protected, whenever possible (which is most of the time).
     
  6. CaptainPatch

    CaptainPatch Lifelong gamer

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    Then what you are suggesting is that the entire Intelligence apparatus is no better than common policemen for maintaining Security. Yet, IRL we know that Counter Intelligence is a BIG thing to stop terrorist attacks -- which naturally can't be stopped 100% which is why it's big news when bombs DO go off -- and foil enemy intelligence-gathering. Just figure the Offense and Defense percentages. What would you give as the likelihood of a successful Intelligence gathering mission? 10%? 20%? 30? Whatever amount, the flip side is that COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE/Security is 90%, 80%, 70%, etc. effective. And if a civ pours additional resources into Security rather than offensive operations, that Security CAN be the next best thing to airtight. Which the current system pointedly does NOT allow.

    In most of my games, _I_ am usually the tech leader, so there is damn little that I need from the other civs. So I have little incentive to go after what little they have. That leaves me in the position of needing to keep them from whittling away my tech lead every chance they get -- which I CAN'T do because of this damn leaky barrier system I have to deal with.

    [I can't remember: is there still a way to turn Espionage off entirely? Or was that Civ 5?]
     
  7. ShunNakamura

    ShunNakamura Warlord

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    Spying is a bit bleh for me. Definitely more fun to go on the offense. I don't find it fun that defense mostly comes from cards.

    I tend to think that the defense game of spying should just be removed. Maybe give a Counterspy budget slider that eats a percentage of your gold/science/culture per turn and that would be enough for defense. Leave the offense game as it is though. That I find to be fairly fun. Though it is tedious to find targets in larger games with a ludicrous number of cities. That said a 'select a civ and then a mission' system would end up either being random or just auto-selecting a target based on some logic. Either way it would take away the ability to specifically target a particular district which could be frustrating. Imagine a dozen heists and you never getting the one great work of theirs you wanted. Actually I haven't stolen any great works yet, so I am not quite sure how that works. I haven't had the luck of putting the spy in the right Theater district yet. Seems like governor elimination and the production smashes are a better use of the spies time. Though I did once manage to use forment unrest to flip a city. That was a rather fringe case though. Generally that trick is rather useless.
     
  8. Ivan Hunger

    Ivan Hunger Prince

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    If you're dominating so hard in technology, gold, great works, and loyalty that there's actually nothing at all useful your spies can do, then who cares what the enemy spies are doing? You're clearly steamrolling and will win soon regardless. Just sit back and coast to victory.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    sounds like you were attacked and are a little salty.... a spy attacking you means little. Especially compared to natural disasters
    If you clump your zones you get pretty good adjacency, if you want to put a Campus way out in the mountains for great adjacency the price is a bit of science.... if you want to put your IZ in a remote location the same applies but hits you harder... your choice, great adjacency is not possible in all cities, at least protect your best one if you feel that strong.
    Counter intelligence in real life is not an easy game, why should it be here, you cannot protect all of London from spies poisoning people and terrorists letting off bombs, get a grip and take it.
    Sure, in the globalus Paramus file set the max spies to 0 and be happy in your game. That is important.
     
  10. CaptainPatch

    CaptainPatch Lifelong gamer

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    "globalus Paramus"? What's that? Is that a setting in Options/Settings? Is it something a casual player would automatically know about? Or is it something only people that routinely mess with .ini files would be familiar with?
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The file is GlobalParameters.xml there are a few copies around but the one to change is in the data directory under expansion2.. I think it may in fact be called Expansion2_GlobalParameters.xml
    Just pop into it with notepad and look at the setting starting ESPIONAGE_ and one will scream out max spies.
     
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  12. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    Still need to guard spaceports in GS. They're definitely still spy magnets.

    As for the topic of this thread, the number of spies seems about right to me. I wouldn't mind managing another few. You need to learn to guess what is most likely to be targeted and protect the top few targets and have fun with the rest.

    Civ II spies ... Yeah, can't forget that model. Poison water supply. :nono: It had diplomats too, wouldn't mind a return of them. Can't just click a button to make a delegation or embassy appear. Anyway, nostalgia ... :old:
     
  13. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

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    You're right. It's impossible to have a perfect defense and that's by design. In espionage, it's impossible to have a perfect defense simply because there are too many targets. So, Intel agencies have to prioritize by how likely snooping is to occur and/or how much potential chaos could be unleashed.

    There are other ways to ferret out spies as to cut down on guess work, but I don't see how they could be implemented against an ai in civ. IRL, the most common method is the line and hook -- put false information out there and then see who passes it along to whom.
     
  14. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Nostalgia is not what it used to be. ;)
     
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  15. Naeshar

    Naeshar Warlord

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    Yes, I was mildly suggesting that, because Civ6 does not give you an Intelligence apparatus. It gives you a representation of it in the baseline spy (and police state) protection and Special Agents. What you desire is not this spicing, but the everyday counterintelligence bread. And here is why it cant be found in a game of Civilization:

    1. It is booooring (players hate that)
    2. It is micromanagement ("filthy casual" players hate that too)
    3. The first spies in game come in renaissance. It is ahistorical to have a state-run agency at that time.
    4. It is 0 fun going against an impenetrable defense. You dont want your 007 to be caught either. Just imagine all the lesser attempts were prevented by your forces.

    Also, attacking Victoria over a typo is an argumentation fail. It is a game, dont get hysterical :).
     
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  16. SirWozzel

    SirWozzel Chieftain

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    My problem with the spies is they stop the counterspying as soon as they catch someone, so if the ai has like 6 spies in my capital all targeting the same district and I catch one the rest go off without a hitch.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Uhhh, there was not many states then but there were monarchs with very good intelligence networks, more than you may think.
    Not a typo, was just messing, was not really an attack, serves me right.
    that is initially because the spy needs promotion but once a master this should be permanent. However... they have blessedly made this a single click with GS so I am happy.
     
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  18. SirWozzel

    SirWozzel Chieftain

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    I only noticed the renew mission on spies that did not catch any enemy spies, every time I have caught a spy I have needed to set them to counterspy again even after max level. In my most recent game I happened to catch a spy every turn so it got old pretty quick. Unless I am missing something of course.
     
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  19. Canadian Bluebeer

    Canadian Bluebeer Prince

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    They can't spy on you if they're dead. Sure, the ones who are left can cause a bit of havoc behind the lines, but that won't stop the panzers already in the field from crushing them. :D

    (I do keep a couple spies with the defensive promos back to guard the capital (usually my biggest producer), and some units for the partisans that they always seem to recruit. bombers are good for that)
     
  20. ggmoyang

    ggmoyang King

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    If you are really bothered with AI spies you can use Cryptography policy and use a spy with Polygraph promotion on counterespionage... -3 level is huge
     

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