IDEA/DISCUSS Vietnam

McMonkey

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Hello

A couple of years ago I started work on a Vietnam scenario. Somewhere along the line I ran out of steam. Since then I have completed a WWII scenario and learned a lot about events and how to make correct units appear. I have also found some cool new units on the Apolyton Modern Units thread that would bring the look of the game up to date.
Although I do not intend to start work on it at the moment I would like to make it possible to share some ideas and get advice so when I do go back to it one day I have a lot to start with.

Example of graphics (bit basic!) and map (would probably x3 size!):
Nam sample.JPG
Nam Map.JPG
Quality of map screenshot is not very good but it gives you an idea.

Cities:
Purple - Vietnamese (VC/NVA)
Blue - USA (+ Australia)
White - South Korea
Yellow I - South Vietnamese (ARVN)
Orange - Cambodian
Green - Laos
Yellow II - Thailand

Concepts and some new (?) ideas:
Ho Chi Minh Trail and Cambodian bases:
The idea behind the Ho Chi Minh trail was to make the Vietnamese AI very mobile and able to strike at will and surprise the US player. Also it was ment to be part of an (almost) off limits area for the Human player (ie Neutral Laos and Cambodia). I will explain this later.
The Ho Chi Minh trail is an 'invisible railway'. If you played as the NVA/VC this would not work. As the AI can 'see' the railroads whatever the graphics are set as, then making them invisibe has no ill effect. This way the NVA/VC can move safely between its bases and attack where it wants. The de-railing points are spread along the border with South Vietnam. Below is an example of a secure (out of US bomber range) NVA base in Cambodia that is linked with all the other bases by the 'invisibe RR':
Phnom Penh and COMEKONG.JPG

The DMZ and Cambodian Border:
As you can see from the screenshot above there are border posts between Cambodia and South Vietnam. They belong to the neutral Cambodians and cannot be destroyed! They genorate a zone of control (ZOC) that US troops cannot pass (other than Special forces and Aircraft). The NVA/VC ignore ZOC and cross the border at will. Therefore they can build up at their large bases, travel quickly to the border then cross it and launch raids into the South as they wish! Ditto with the DMZ (demilitarized zone between N and S Vietnam.
See the 'Parrots beak' below also:
Saigon and Parots beak.JPG

LZs and Fire Bases and Hueys:
The concept of the Landing Zones (LZs) is essential to Vietnam as there are few roads in the jungle and movement by foot is slow. I have created a Huey helicopter unit that is an 'Air settler'. This unit can fly into an area of operations and start constructing an LZ (or Airbase). At the same time US Airborne troops can be dropped in to the combat zone by chopper (parachuted), and when finished they can be airlifted back out (or parachuted out from the new LZ). This will make remote areas accessible to the player who can set up LZs in strategic areas, build defences for it with the Hueys and then up sticks and leave when finished.

Mobile Riverine Force:
This is just a series of Monitor Gunships, Armoured troop carriers and Hovercraft that carried troops of the US 9th Division up and down the Mekong Delta, wasting Charly! I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.

Makeing it hard for US:
As the Vietnam war was not a conventional war, I did not want to make a conventional scenario. The US player can tear about burning VC villages but to win the game will not be that simple. The NVA main bases are safe in Cambodia and Laos and they are tough!
Not sure how to decide how the game is won or lost. One thing I am determined to do is make it extremely tough for the US to win!

Any comments, idea, suggestions or graphics please feel free to share them!
 
Have started the remake. The new map is about 3-4 times bigger and more accurate + lots of new ideas. What I need is good Vietnam era units, especially infantry.
US Marine.PNG
The US Marine attached is by Vodkakov (who no longer posts:( ) and is the sort of style and quality I am looking for. I also need some good helicopters (Ie Huey, Cobra, Chinook and Chocktaw) and any other Vietnam era units anyone might have.
I have also included both halfs on the new map (in an early stage). I know they are on their side, there is a reason for this! All will be revealed.
NEW NAM MAP SOUTH.PNG
NEW NAM MAP NORTH.PNG
 
Below is a link to the new thread in Apolyton. I will still be looking at this thread but it is a bit quiet so most of my effort will be directed at Apoly!
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161742
There is some interesting info there about the Mobile Riverine Force if anyone is interested. I need some graphics for that unit!:cool:
 
Have you checked in Civ Fanatics download section for modern-era/Vietnam War scenarios?

There might be a few from which you can obtain some units/ideas.

Cheers!
 
Yeah, theres two there and I found another one elsewhere. I have plundered the graphics as much as possible but they are a wee bit dated. The scenarios themselves gave me a few ideas but none of them really seemed to capture the vibe of Vietnam, I guess it is not your normal CivII scenario matter, no front lines etc...
What is needed is a whole new approach!
 
I have decided to join the crowd and make this game for ToT! The lure of extra units, more events and perhaps some people wanting to play it when I finish was too tempting!

Heres how the maps going, its about 50% there! Yes, I know its on its side! What is North anyway, its just a concept!!!

NAMToT1st.PNG

Theres quite a lively debate going on over in Apolyton if anyone has any ideas about this game: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161742

Keep it real:cool:
 
The map is now finished and I will start building the game itself as soon as I iron out the teething troubles I am having with ToT!
There are some excellent ideas being genorated in the 'Poly thread so if you are feeling creative check it out!
 
Cheers Catfish
I think I have worked my way through most of the initian teething issues. Work on this scenario is now well under way. Quick question. Would putting settler type units with low att/def in the Knights/Musketeers slot avoid most of the problems or would this be too simple?
 
I had to check the Apolyton thread to figure out what you were talking about. I don't normally follow scenario development threads.

I assume you're referring to this article WRT the Knights and Musketeers slots. Those slots behave differently in ToT. I've experienced none of those problems using the Musketeers slot. The Knights slot, on the other hand, affects the entire units list, but only those units with a movement of 2 and an AI role of 0. I think it goes something like this:

Cannot build a Move 2, AI role 0 unit if the Knights slot unit is buildable and
the unit's Attack <= Knights and
the unit's Defence < Knights.

On hiding cities: if you want to hide cities on explored terrain, you can do it by hex-editing the SAV file. This will require edits in a number of locations for each city. It's a bit of a pain, but I think it's a better option than leaving it to the AI. You'll probably need to get someone like Agricola or Boco to do it for you - or even me if I'm around.

On the engineer slot: you can give any role 5 unit engineering capabilities in ToT by setting the 6th bit (reverse programmer notation) in column G of the @UNITS_ADVANCED table to 1, ie:

00100000

So there's no real need to reserve the engineer slot for engineers.
 
Sorry. I just read my last post and realised it is less than clear what on earth I was on about! In my head it made perfect sense. I must start reading through what I have written before I post!!!
It looks like you worked it out anyway though! Thanks for the link. Hex-editing is new to me so I may seek help but the possibilities it would open up makes it seem worth learning! The info about the engineers is handy to know too. I still have a lot to learn about ToT!
 
This project is currently on hold. I think I was a bit too ambitious and have made some fundamental mistakes that need extensive work.

The biggest mistake was making the map on its side!!! Although the map is very large and accurate I am just not happy with its orientation!
The reason for making it so big was to make the role of airmobile units an essential tactic. I have seen Vietnam scenarios on quite small maps where a tank unit could quite quickly go around all the VC villages and win the game. I wanted the map to be vast and the VC/NVA hard to locate and destroy.

The reason for the map being on its side was because I did not know how to alter the dimensions of a 32,000sq map (I do now!). What I ended up doing was take the 32,000sq world map from Imperialism 1870 and use the map editor to cover it with ocean and start again. If I do start this project again I may well start with a brand new, conventionally orientated map.

On the plus side I am happy with most of the units concepts. The Communists are very aggressive and have the Ho Chi Minh trail to assist their deployment. The Ho Chi Minh trail is an invisible railroad behind the border. It is (mostly) covered with impassable terrain so that US forces cannot use it. The border is an impassable terrain type that US ground troops cannot cross but the Communists ignore. The Communist cities are either fortified villages inside South Vietnam or bases across the border in Laos, Camboia and North Vietnam. US air power will be essential for bombing these base areas.

OK, I have blathered on enough for now. If anyone is interested in seeing the progress so far I can post the files. At the moment I would say that it is semi playable. If anyone would like to know more about the game concept I will be happy to explain :)
 
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