Idea: selling slaves/criminals/prisoners and possible new unit, PoW

[CptBadger]

I don't know if this has been discussed during my absence, but..
I really wish you could sell slaves/prisoners/servants, in Africa and/or Port royal. It seems like it should be easy, since you can sell ships. Wouldn't be super profitable (you wouldn't buy just to resell) but when you capture slaves in battle and you don't want to put them to work (chasing them down requires free troops, and can really screw production if you're counting on them for food/lumber/raw materials) could even have it reflected in a square for "goods" if needed to make an even row, and prices to buy/sell could balance just like other goods. If you buy a bunch for labor, price rises, then you sell a bunch captured in war (or replaced with skilled labor and don't need the risk of slaves), prices go back down. Could sell them in any market (with their own price) but you'd be buying criminals/PoWs in Europe, African Slaves in Africa, and Native Slaves in PR.

Could even expand concept with new unit, European Prisoners of War (PoW). Similar stats to a criminal, high likelihood of revolt, acquired by capturing European colonists or cities by a percentage. Maybe standard starting is 50% chance you'll get colonist as-is, 50% chance they become PoW unit.

Do the different unfree colonist types become free with different probability? PoW could become free faster, as they just have to accept new rule and pledge fealty, and earn trust. They aren't bad people, just resistant to being captured and not ready to betray their king.

I mean, if a foreign military unit rolled into my town, I wouldn't exactly be a productive citizen for their benefit anytime soon. They'd most likely have me locked up or dead for resisting. I've always thought it too smooth (even with a few turns of unrest) how you just capture skilled units who start making you goods.

could become pretty in-depth if desired, added historical depth and play-diversity. Could be as simple as selling them for 100g each in Africa and call it done.. Thoughts?

 

[raystuttgart]

Do the different unfree colonist types become free with different probability?

Yes, they do have different probabilities and thresholds.
(Slaves take the longes, Criminals still take long and Indentured Servants become free fastest.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Thoughts?

Nothing I would really be interested to invest my own time and effort into.
(So I will not implement it myself in my private WTP modmod.)

Since I am not member of WTP core mod team anymore - but independent now - I can not speak anymore for WTP.
(So the WTP core mod team needs to decide if it wants to invest its effort into it.)

If WTP core mod team or some other modder really puts effort into it himself, I would support though.
(e.g. solving issues or trying to figure out button placement in Africa / Port Royal Screen.)

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Generally I simply do not care about it ...
(I would not mind either if it is well implemented though.)

 

[CptBadger]

Nothing I would really be interested to invest my own time and effort into.
(So I will not implement it myself in my private WTP modmod.)

Since I am not member of WTP core mod team anymore - but independent now - I can not speak anymore for WTP.
(So the WTP core mod team needs to decide if it wants to invest its effort into it.)

If WTP core mod team or some other modder really puts effort into it himself, I would support though.
(e.g. solving issues or trying to figure out button placement in Africa / Port Royal Screen.)

--------

Generally I simply do not care about it ...
(I would not mind either if it is well implemented though.)

I totally get that! All kinds of things I'd love to see, but I can barely /make/ time to play at all, let alone learn how to code. Definitely appreciate all you've done!

Do you know, just off of memory, any reasons my idea isn't feasible?

 

[raystuttgart]

Do you know, just off of memory, any reasons my idea isn't feasible?

No, it is definitely feasible in terms of a "Human only feature".
But it is almost impossible to teach that to AI.

Since it has little impact and bacially no strategical value itself I do not see an issue to make it a "Human only feature" though.
Actually I do not even really understand why you want to have that feature ... I see no value in gameplay for it.

 

[CptBadger]

No, it is definitely feasible in terms of a "Human only feature".
But it is almost impossible to teach that to AI.

Since it has little impact and bacially no strategical value itself I do not see an issue to make it a "Human only feature" though.
Actually I do not even really understand why you want to have that feature ... I see no value in gameplay for it.

I was playing the other day, had all my cities tetering on the brink of unhappiness from pop/slaves, and had almost 30 natives slaves hanging out outside my various colonies, and I wasn't even at war. Captured them during native raids in retaliation for culture expansion. Had another dozen or two in cities just doing some sort of random raw production just to put them to work somehow. I could have happily sold 40 slaves on a market and had cash that would have been more useful to me than untrained bodies that will likely try to flee in a few turns.

I don't /like/ using a workforce that will just up and leave, maybe if I could have enough military units in city and that equated to unfree /cant/ escape it would be more worthwhile to me.

I play cautiously, dont willingly engage battles with more than 2percent loss rate (unless with a very specific gambit in motion), dont start wars I can't win in a very quick, efficient manner. I use the Art of War even in my games lol. So I don't care much for using units that I cannot rely on to stay in their colony/task.

 

[raystuttgart]

... maybe if I could have enough military units in city and that equated ...

Then please check here.

The "Slave Master" I had in mind is maybe a better solution for your problem.
(And it is also by far less effort to implement.)

"Getting rid of Slaves by selling them in Africa" feels a bit strange to me.
Because it actually is a bit unimmersive as it turns historic reality around.

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Well both could be implemented in parallel of course.
They do not really conflict or anything.

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Let us see what this community will implement in the future.
There are still enough great ideas out there ... simply not enough modders to implement them all ...

 

[CptBadger]

Then please check here.

The "Slave Master" I had in mind is maybe a better solution for your problem.
(And it is also by far less effort to implement.)

"Getting rid of Slaves by selling them in Africa" feels a bit strange to me.
Because it actually is a bit unimmersive as it turns historic reality around.

----

Well both could be implemented in parallel of course.
They do not really conflict or anything.

----

Let us see what this community will implement in the future.
There are still enough great ideas out there ... simply not enough modders to implement them all ...

So I love that idea, and it would definitely help in the scenario I had the other day. I had plenty of defensive units, and plenty of NatMercs running around capturing escapees, but if I could have used my 3-5 units per city to quell some of escaping /and/ earn xp while doing so? Worth it.

And just because it wasn't common, doesn't make it contrary to the spirit of the game. Also, the slave trade was very alive in the Caribbean, natives, african, and even European prisoners/slaves were exchanged and sold at markets. But, the measures you mention through unit policing would be effective at mitigating the unusable slaves

 

[modmod]

I did make servants acquirable in Europe for money (still not call it buy but get them).

But don`t see the reality in selling them FROM the colonies.
Same stands for criminals.

As for slaves (african/ native): I would like that.
Probably as diplomatic events between colonial powers.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Historically the Triangle Trade imported slaves from Africa to America. Noone would pay money to buy slaves from America at the african coast when the african natives sold their captives from raids or wars to the europeans on the coast.

The need for slaves in Africa was not there as there was a large population with more than enough manpower existing in Africa that did not lose half their numbers from european diseases as in the Americas. And the european presence in Africa was at the time from 1492 to 1792 minimal, practically only small settlements at the coast and a handful of colonies where the climate was acceptable (e.g. the Cape Colony). Everywhere else, especially the interior of Africa remained as large white spots on the maps because of diseases that the europeans could not cope with until the later discovery of vaccines.

So trading slaves TO Africa? Silly thought.

Trading slaves around in the Americas is strange too. They were imported from Africa to work in the Americas - the whole idea of selling surplus slaves in the US came up only after 1807 when the British Empire forbid the slave trade and started to stop slave ships. Slavery continued but with slaves born in America and traded from the states that had not much need to those where more and more plantations were established.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
Could even expand concept with new unit, European Prisoners of War (PoW). Similar stats to a criminal, high likelihood of revolt, acquired by capturing European colonists or cities by a percentage. Maybe standard starting is 50% chance you'll get colonist as-is, 50% chance they become PoW unit.

Do the different unfree colonist types become free with different probability? PoW could become free faster, as they just have to accept new rule and pledge fealty, and earn trust. They aren't bad people, just resistant to being captured and not ready to betray their king.

I mean, if a foreign military unit rolled into my town, I wouldn't exactly be a productive citizen for their benefit anytime soon. They'd most likely have me locked up or dead for resisting. I've always thought it too smooth (even with a few turns of unrest) how you just capture skilled units who start making you goods.
...

Nowadays most of us live still in nation states that we feel connected to. Especially as we live in democracies that allow us to take part in voting and politics.
Back then when most countries were ruled by absolute monarchs people were far less loyal to their country. Reknown military officers used to serve sometimes in two or three armies in their career and none of them was a military of their home country. Soldiers were mustered/hired not only from the home country but from neighbouring states too and served in the army. Sailors were often pressed into service and had to serve on a ship for a year because the night before they drank too much and were shanghai´d...

And in the Americas? King and mother country were far and people from all over Europe came to settle later. But already in the 13 colonies and the eastern atlantic seabord it was a diverse bunch of people. And then the land was sparsely settled - not like nowadays were one of the reasons someone would resist would be the knowledge that a lot of others live near who would do so too. Think about the large swathes of land that e.g. changed hands in the french-english wars, e.g. Canada

Examples would be the takeover of the swedish colony by the dutch and later that of the dutch colony by the english. The soldiers fought, a peace was made (the dutch received a part of Surinam and gave up New Amsterdam) - and after that the dutch people living there did not mind to be ruled by the english king instead.

 

[raystuttgart]

So trading slaves TO Africa? Silly thought.

I agree, it is a quite unimmersive and strange.

In historic reality a ship bringing slaves from the Americas to Africa was simply never heard of.
Anyobody doing so would simply have been a complete fool because he could have sold those slaves for much more money and withouth having to transport them in the Americas directly.

It is a bit like "bringing Salt Water to the Ocean" ...
That is what I meant with this here:

"Getting rid of Slaves by selling them in Africa" feels a bit strange to me.
Because it actually is a bit unimmersive as it turns historic reality around.

For myself I have already give the answer to this:

Nothing I would really be interested to invest my own time and effort into.
(So I will not implement it myself in my private WTP modmod.)

---

But well, every modder shall implement whatever he likes.
And if a new modder wants to invest his effort into this, as I said:

... some other modder really puts effort into it himself, I would support though.
(e.g. solving issues or trying to figure out button placement in Africa / Port Royal Screen.)

 

[Acheron81]

I believe the reason this request comes up all the time is because slaves aren't very useful. Players want to unload them and it seems logical that they should get something in return since they had to pay for them or attain them in war to begin with. It could be fixed with a little bit of balancing to make slaves more valuable:
Reduce the frequency of events that grant slaves.
Reduce the frequency of slaves running away.
Raise the price for slaves (?)
Allow slaves to become the profession "pioneer". In my games I have constantly wished I could do this. There's always another forest to be cut down, field to be plowed, etc. and slaves would be perfect for this.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I believe the reason this request comes up all the time is because slaves aren't very useful. Players want to unload them and it seems logical that they should get something in return since they had to pay for them or attain them in war to begin with. It could be fixed with a little bit of balancing to make slaves more valuable:
Reduce the frequency of events that grant slaves.
Reduce the frequency of slaves running away.
Raise the price for slaves (?)
Allow slaves to become the profession "pioneer". In my games I have constantly wished I could do this. There's always another forest to be cut down, field to be plowed, etc. and slaves would be perfect for this.

Simple solution: Make free colonists and even specialists a bit worse than currently at working american plantation growths at the start of the game, e.g. cotton, tobacco, corn, sugar. And only later in the next era/age/tech step/whatever give them a bonus to be able to compete.

If the african slave for the first 100 years of the game is THE best unit to work on plantations (if not that strong the THE best unit on plantations in tropical and subtropical areas) then it will be used. Currently with the specialist being better right from the start a player might not want to use african slaves despite them costing only 300 gold compared to the 1000s a european unit might cost depending on bell production.

 

[modmod]

I believe the reason this request comes up all the time is because slaves aren't very useful. ... It could be fixed with a little bit of balancing to make slaves more valuable:

In my modmod

• African slaves get some extra production in cash croops, in concrete: + 1 sugar, cotton, indigo, coffee
  
• Native slaves (and converted natives): + 1 tobacco, red pepper, fish, coca
• When there is a bonus resource they get +2 instead of + 1

The + values meaning: + to the basic in the mainmod.

 

[CptBadger]

In my modmod

• African slaves get some extra production in cash croops, in concrete: + 1 sugar, cotton, indigo, coffee
  
• Native slaves (and converted natives): + 1 tobacco, red pepper, fish, coca
• When there is a bonus resource they get +2 instead of + 1

The + values meaning: + to the basic in the mainmod.

I like that, higher specialization between them

 

[Acheron81]

Simple solution: Make free colonists and even specialists a bit worse than currently at working american plantation growths at the start of the game, e.g. cotton, tobacco, corn, sugar.

I agree. Currently the production modifiers for cash crops go like this: Expert Planter +3, African Slave +2, Native Slave +1. Maybe it should be rearranged like this: African Slave +3, Native Slave +2, Expert Planter +1. If this makes the slaves overpowered then the price for them can be raised.

 

[CptBadger]

so between the policing/slave Master mechanic, and a rebalancing of usefulness, I think those would be enough to satisfy my frustrations. I've also started to plan a little differently in New cities, prioritizing happiness above any other building considerations, which improves how many slaves I can functionally employ as I grow