Ideas for Trait changes

[Imuratep]

Yesterday I had a game where I played an industrious leader (flavourwise one of my favorites: Cassiel) and I thought it's quite a shame that finally in a game I had the trait combination I wished for in vanilla civ, but that I always change industrious to charismatic (for his heroes) or commercial, so I told myself: Keep it, your wish is fullfilled, the late game will make industrious better with 100% for forges. Later in the game I started a ritual then I realized that industrious doesn't affect it at all (makes sense), but it would be quite cool if there was a trait which accelerated the construction of rituals.
So I thought of changes for three traits:

Industrious: In vanilla civ there are on the one hand more early wonders and on the other hand wonders are considerably cheaper than in fall from heaven. The only wonder you can build quite early is pact of the nilhorn and at least on immortal some of the KI seem to like it very much, so on turn 60-70 it's quite often already built. Additionally the +50% on wonders does often make no odds because of the very high costs of wonders, that you can only pay if you play civilizations with additional mechanics like the Sidars Wanes or the Luchuirp World Spell.
So the first thing I would suggest to allow some more early wonders (something like Stonehenge in vanilla civ: a free building of a certain type or a wonder that gives you a certain amount of free - something like 10 - so you can more easyly build additional wonders).
The second thing that occured to me is that there could be an early building comparable with market and elder council that gives you 3 , for which industrious leaders get +100% (or to support industrious more +2 for every leader and +2 additional for an industrious leader). I don't know if allowing an engineer would be overpowered for an early building but you could also add this.

Arcane and Spiritual: Concerning rituals I think it would be perfectly flavorful if one or both of these traits get +50% on rituals as leaders who understand arcane or divine powers and by that also have more competent mages/priests can support their citizens with their knowledge in the completion of a ritual which is basically linked with arcane or divine power.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Industrious seems ok to me... esp with late game wonders like the final altar and tower of mastery where 50% faster is significant when you're racing for the victory.

I agree that arcane and spiritual thematically should have a ritual speed bonus since the rituals are so expensive and not necessarily that useful anyway.

 

[MaxAstro]

I've always disliked the industrious bonus because it seems like the kind of bonus that is either too weak or considerably broken. If you are doing anything other than building a wonder, it's a useless trait. If you are rushing someone toward a critical wonder, it's an immense advantage.

Personally, I changed Industrious to give +1 hammer from tiles with 3 or more hammers instead of the wonder bonus. Probably overpowered, but at least it feels like an "Industrious" trait and not a "Really Good at Building a Few Specific Things" trait.

 

[GeeJo]

I'd say add Summoner to the list for the second bonus there.

 

[Demus]

I've always disliked the industrious bonus because it seems like the kind of bonus that is either too weak or considerably broken. If you are doing anything other than building a wonder, it's a useless trait. If you are rushing someone toward a critical wonder, it's an immense advantage.

Personally, I changed Industrious to give +1 hammer from tiles with 3 or more hammers instead of the wonder bonus. Probably overpowered, but at least it feels like an "Industrious" trait and not a "Really Good at Building a Few Specific Things" trait.

that would at least make arturus on par with kandros as far as the dwarves go... 1/5 or 0/6 mines combined with an overflowing dwarven vault is insane (assuming arete is used).

 

[heisenberg]

I'm still sort of satisfied with the Industrious trait as it is, especially when it helps you to rush those key wonders faster than rivals at higher difficulties. Like on larger maps when I do play the Sheaim I do favour Os-Gabella abit more--you do lose the arcane trait for faster Eaters, but I find that getting that mage guild in every city with a planar gate is that much more important, and much much later on that weaponsmith in every city for minotaurs too.

 

[heisenberg]

I'd say add Summoner to the list for the second bonus there.

Summoner isnt that bad either wait till 0.34 and see the buffed up archmages/liches wth wraiths....
If you picked a summoner leader you'd be walking deep down the magic line anyway--and effectively tripling the summons you can throw at enemy stacks to soften them up is definitely not something to scoff at, especially those summons with affinity thus retaining lategame potential.

 

[Imuratep]

Ok I agree that for Altar and Tower Industrious IS quite useful, but for those the best choices are still the civs with special production abilities like the Sidar with their wanes or the Luchuirp with their worldspell or the Khazad with their Dwarven vault. It helps Sandalphon and Arturus Thorne a lot. But what about the other leaders like Capria, Cassiel, Os-Gabella, that don't have production boosting abilities? Shouldn't they be able to boost their production by some way? They are supposed to have a good industry by their traits. RoK anyone can adopt to boost his production, so having arete with industrious doesn't count. In vanilla civ industrious is counted among the best traits. In FFH I would say it is at best avarage.
So my suggestions are earlier wonders (at least more than just pact of nilhorn) - In vanilla civ we have pyramids, oracle, stonehenge and lighthouse that can be build with basic techs -, a production boosting building better for industrious leaders and perhaps you could add to industrious trait +25% on every non-Wonder building, which would be quite useful, but surely not broken (because +1 for each field with 3 and more would be broken).
The last and probably best solution would be to give every Civ with an industrious leader that does not have a production boosting ability an such ability to make the 50% worth choosing this leader. Bannor and Grigori should anyway get some boost so why not an ability connected with production. And the Sheaim could get the double amount of production for sacrificing slaves, which would be flavorful and make the industrious ability on os-gabella better.

Concerning my second suggestion, yes, Summoner could also be added to those with a bonus for rituals. It would be quite cool, that Os-Gabella had +50% for rituals and 50% for wonders and Tebryn Arbandi had +100% for rituals (with arcane and summoner).
Edit: For the Sheaim a boost on rituals would be quite synergistic. Think of Elegy of the Sheaim, which now is quite expensive, but with a boost would be a real strategy for them.

 

[Caradoc]

Something I'd really like to see in a modmod is a way for established leaders to acquire or change traits. Or for traits to be enhanced.

And how about a leader with random traits -- not changing like Perpentach's -- but assigned a random combination at the start of the game.

 

[GeeJo]

And how about a leader with random traits -- not changing like Perpentach's -- but assigned a random combination at the start of the game.

You can already do this. Just pick Random Good/Neutral/Evil leader

 

[Keeper_GFA]

How about a ritual to add a new trait?

 

[Zechnophobe]

I think the only real problem with Industrious is the lack of good wonders in the game in general. There are a few, but they almost all come near the end of the game, or involve some niche victory condition (Tower of Master, Altar of Luonnatar).

A quick list off the top of my head:

Pact (Good, but only if you get it fast)
Bone Palace (Mediocre)
Theatre of Dreams (Blah)
Hall of Kings (More blah)
Sylivens perfect Lyre (Additional Blah)
Guild of Hammers (Awesome)
Nexus (Awesome)
Pillar of Chains (New implementation is pretty awesome)
City of Thousand Slums (Eh, good with the Pillar )
Catacomb Libralus (Good with Gaelen's circle, but that's it).

Anyhow, I'm not really a fan of most of the wonders. Very few are as potent as some of the early Civ4 wonders.

 

[heisenberg]

actually, I LOVE hall of kings
the 2 culture/spec basically means you effectively have a mini-creative trait. Build any new city and you dont ever have to build that monument again for the first border push--build something cheap and useful like a market, assign a merchant, and tada!~
any border city that runs a mini-SE would be pushing boundaries back very fast, considering the somewhat lack of culture generating buildings in FfH.

not to mention that should you ever be heading for a cultural victory, its a pretty devastating wonder.

 

[Mailbox]

I think the only real problem with Industrious is the lack of good wonders in the game in general. There are a few, but they almost all come near the end of the game, or involve some niche victory condition (Tower of Master, Altar of Luonnatar).

A quick list off the top of my head:

Pact (Good, but only if you get it fast)
Bone Palace (Mediocre)
Theatre of Dreams (Blah)
Hall of Kings (More blah)
Sylivens perfect Lyre (Additional Blah)
Guild of Hammers (Awesome)
Nexus (Awesome)
Pillar of Chains (New implementation is pretty awesome)
City of Thousand Slums (Eh, good with the Pillar )
Catacomb Libralus (Good with Gaelen's circle, but that's it).

Anyhow, I'm not really a fan of most of the wonders. Very few are as potent as some of the early Civ4 wonders.

The great library is amazing in my opinion. I'm big on building elder councils and assigning sages in new cities so the + 1 science / sage is something that really adds up.

 

[Imuratep]

You're right some good wonders would make industrious much better. But we are a creative community, so let's collect some ideas .
Idea 1: I thought of a wonder that gives you boni depending on your leader traits. I don't know probably it would flavorwise a ritual since it's in some way the transcendence of the leader, but I think the idea could easily also fit for a wonder:
Aggressive could give you combat II for all units,
Raiders an additional +100% for pillaging improvements and free raiding (except roads),
Arcane an even faster gain of experience for arcane units or a free upgrade for all adepts
Spiritual the same for priests or the ability of Christo Redentor for vanilla civ
Expansive +3 in all cities and 30% of the food is stored by growing,
Charismatic +1 happiness in all cities and -25% xp requirements for unit upgrade
Creative +5-10 and +50% in all cities
Philosophical +50-100% and +3 GP of a type you choose,
Summoner either +2 duration of summoned units or some cool summoned unit upgrade
Defensive +25% city defense, that can't be removed by catapults etc., and -30% collateral damage to your units
Organized -30% upkeep in all cities
Industrious an additional +50% for wonders

I know my version is quite broken and would require a late technique, but together we can tune it down a bit, so I'm anxious to your ideas

Idea 2 : How about a reverse pillar of chain, that gives you +1 for each happy citizen?
Idea 3 A wonder or a ritual that gives you an additional trait would also be nice. Perhaps it could be connected flavorwise with my first idea: There are different stages of transcendence a leader can achieve.

 

[Blackmantle]

On Industrious: A 100% bonus to worker speed (not movement but the speed at which they build improvements ) might make that trait rather quite interesting i belive. (50% if 100% is seriously deemed as overpowered. 50% is still quite an important boost.)
Flavorful, new previously unused territory for traits and useful in any game and for most stages of a game at least until late midgame.

And i also like some of the wonders depicted as weak above.

The Lyre is only truly valuable if you go for a cultural victory. But if you do its more or less a must-have. Same with the theatre of Dreams and to a lesser degree the Hall of the Kings.
They might be rather meh otherwise. But they do fill their function well enough imo (cities with +300% culture do really skyroket culturewise And the Lyre can be passed around to make all 3 way faster so around +250% is no big deal for all 3 .).

Hall of the Kings is also very decent for Sidar and any civ running an unlimited-specialist civic (theocracy, liberty, scolarship and guilds should be all).

But i do agree strongly that more wonders (midgame) / rituals (lategame) whould be very nice indeed and somewhat needed as well. Many mid to late-game techs especially seem rather dull (save for parts of the monetary/mechanical and arcane lines in that regard.)

But im rather hopeful that Ice phase will hand us some nice ones (since they are usually not huge changes of mechanics and wonders make for some neat storylines.)
With the axing of guilds (sadly seemed nesecary to the team, perhaps due to much OOs?) some additional ones are coming along. But more are always welcome (can one ever have enough wonders? ).

 

[Zechnophobe]

Ooh, I did forget the great Library, that's a good one.

Of course, it's also really cheap as it is, so Industrious just gets it like 5 turns faster or something.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The lyre is not only helpful for cultural victories. Bringing it to your front lines is a good way to ensure that late cities can comptete culturally.

There's also Moka's cauldron and the Soul forge wonders.

 

[Mailbox]

The Soul Forge is one of my favorite wonders in concept but it's only useful for games where you don't expand too much and the computer actually attacks your core cities.

 

[orangelex44]

Yeah, both the Soul Forge and Mokka's Cauldron tend to be non-factors in every game. I think I had one game once where Mokka's Cauldron was useful; I didn't even build it, I captured it and the AI counterattacked me into it.