Improve the Protective trait???

[Mr. Civtastic]

I had another idea.

Ive always taken Protective as a kind of isolationist-themed trait. So what if every protective leader started with mercantilism...the isolationist economy civic? You wouldnt be forced to use it, it would be mostly citizens until you got a library, temple, forge up, it would still have the no trade route caveat. But at the same time it would help your economy, giving you a peace-time bonus. And it might alter some people's tech path...going for pacifism or caste system, delaying banking. Eventually you would get the tech for mercantilism along with everybody else, but the sharp protective leader could/would leverage early mercantilism into a early-to-mid game bonus.

 

[kristopherb]

-Units earn more exp, only when defending. .

good idea but might be overpowered with great wall/leadership promo

-Protective cities get an additional 10% defense bonus. This stacks with normal culture defenses, as well as wall/castle bonuses. Even cities with no culture or walls will still have a 10% defense bonus. .

good walls&castles willl be useful(howabout this idea for all civs?)

-Reducing the defense of a protective city takes longer than normal, this extra resistance is added to the one provided by walls and castles. .

i getthe idea but i dont like the idea

-Protective civs can research the Archery tech at half cost. .

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4915521#post4915521

-A protective city that is being bombarded by enemy artillery may draft a single unit, even if nationalism isn't your current civic. This "free draft" still carries happiness penalities, and may only be done once every 10 turns by cities under attack. .

might be overpowered

-Workers and Settlers become a strength 1 unit that cannot attack. This so they might have a slim chance to survive an animal attack in the early game..

how about +x :stenght: promo to civiliions units

-Protective civs suffer 0 war wearniess when fighting a defensive war, no matter how long it lasts or how many units are lost. .

might be overpowered maybe -50% to charismatic leaders

-Protective cities can be raized, but only after the resistance has been crushed. If the protective civ can take the city back before it stops resisting, the city remains in tact. .

-In order to pillage a tile within a protective civ's border, a unit must have ALL of its movement points unspent as well as its action. Units that have more than 1 movement will not be able to move and pillage in the same turn.

.

good idea

 

[BumpNsubz]

After reading all this, I see two things:

1. Aggressive leaders get a bonus ALL the time to melee and gunpowder units no matter if they are in city tiles, attacking, defending, neutral ground, etc..,

2. Protective leaders get a bonus ONLY IN CITY TILES to archery units

My idea would be to have these two traits balanced a bit. The AI likes to destroy as much as it can before ever reaching the city which renders the city garrison useless.

Idea 1 - Check mark option for "Raze City Improvements" on or off

or

Idea 2 - Follow the idea of what a true aggressor is and a true protector is:

Aggressive trait - bonus xp when in foreign territory, normal in neutral, and penalty when in own territory. Instead of a few units getting an upgrade, all units get an upgrade. And make it unique like: +15% when attacking in foreign, +10% in neutral, +5% in own. That way it doesn't follow the normal upgrade tree, but all units get the bonus.

Protective trait - Same idea here... Bonus xp when in own territory, normal in neutral, penalty in foreign. All units get an upgrade unique from the normal upgrade tree: +25% when defending in city, +20% in cultural boundry, +10% in neutral, and none in foreign (you shouldn't be defending, you should be attacking anyway).

This way barracks still play an important role as you don't start out with one of the first upgrades on the tree, but all units gain a benefit.

Edit: There is no leader with both traits, as that could be too powerfull I think.

 

[CivDude86]

The drill promo helps outside of cities (assuming you get the FS) and unlocks the same promos combat does.

There is no leader with both traits, as that could be too powerfull I think.

Just because you can't get open borders with Tokugawa doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

 

[paperchase417]

how about tacking on 25% or 50% more combat points toward a Great General while fighting within your boarders, like the Great Wall.

 

[BumpNsubz]

how about tacking on 25% or 50% more combat points toward a Great General while fighting within your boarders, like the Great Wall.

I still think that somewhere you should get a defensive bonus reguardless within your culture boundry instead of just the city.

Edit: but yes, good idea on the combat bonus.

 

[BumpNsubz]

I meant there is no leader with both aggressive and protective traits, yet.

Edit: don't know how to use the quote correctly yet, sorry.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Protective leaders get a bonus ONLY IN CITY TILES to archery units

...and gunpowder units.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I meant there is no leader with both aggressive and protective traits, yet.

Tokugowa is Aggressive/Protective.

 

[KMadCandy]

"Personally, I don't see the point to "always peace" being in a war game, but I guess someone else did." one of my most fun/suspenseful games was in always peace, with only domination victory enabled. i had to gain lots of land tile flips (some city flips but they weren't actually necessary) to win, and couldn't take any by war. it was challenging in a completely different way and lots of fun for me. i have always been the type to think in SP that it's your game, play how you want and ignore (no offense meant to any of) the "so-and-so isn't a real victory" types. the game is designed to appeal to different folks in different ways and that's a great thing, it doesn't limit anybody it just adds more options, i <3 that.

back on real topic:

i agree with most that half-price castles are a waste. they go obsolete way too early and aren't that useful even during their lifespan.

"How about allowing Protective Gunpowder units have the ability to have Drill Promotions. If Protective gunpowder units can have Drill Promotions beyond Drill1 it would make more sense."

i've seen that in action in a back-door way and it might be overpowered. for hubby's first game using Warlords, he picked Toku, he wanted to try out the agg/pro combo and liked the idea of the UU with those traits and the UB (it had never dawned on me until that game that the shale plant provides power, as in even if you don't have coal, nifty even not counting the +10&#37; hammers). i was cyrus, with immortals. we did lots of barb farming early on for exp.

granted, this experience was on a MP team game, and at a low level (warlord i think) since it was his first. so we had many advantages that don't usually apply (lots of money to share, so we were able to upgrade a lot of promoted vets which can be really really powerful, we were able to mostly split military duties--he led the foot soldiers, i was the royal canadian yaksman division). so if you want to skip this since it is clearly atypical, feel free.

we rocked. hardcore. he got to drill4 on a lot of early units, and kept them around to upgrade to riflemen/infantry later (the game didn't last to mob inf or tanks). he ended up using quite a few offensively on opponents--even the ones we didn't have a military-tech advantage on it was a slaughterfest. and i'd made some medic units early on, boy howdy even if the enemy suicided cats/trebs/you name it on our SODs in the field, hubby's troops would start next turn barely scratched, ready to go. he used his first GG on a drill4 samurai or something and then went up the CR line, he wanted to see how that worked out and that guy was a killing machine. our combined combined forces were amazing.

drill4 is amazing, and can be used offensively in the right circumstances (we had better circumstances than most, of course). the getting to drill4, and keeping those units around to upgrade them to CR later is the challenge, and probably impossible in real person vs. person MP (which i haven't tried). but when you can do it, you'll be impressed. everybody knows that drill4 is far better than drill3, but not everybody has seen it in action, particularly offensively, and i assure you it's impressive.

just sharing a unique perspective, admittedly in hard to achieve normally circumstances.

 

[BumpNsubz]

Tokugowa is Aggressive/Protective.

You are right, I overlooked that. That's dumb imo. How can you be both?

 

[kristopherb]

Tokugowa is Aggressive/Protective.

and over powered im triing to put i right

 

[khumak]

Prot is nice if you're playing Raging Barbs. In fact I tend to go Chm/Prot if I'm doing that for maximum archer/infantry dominance.

 

[paperchase417]

How can you be both?

I would classify it as being militaristic.

He makes sure his cities are properly defended before he marches out to war. It really makes perfect sense, and any good warlord should do it that way. I don't find it to be over powered, his cities crumble in the end reguardless.

 

[JoeBlade]

My suggestion: drop all current bonuses and instead make protective units impossible to 'bypass' by enemies, as was the case with all units in previous civ versions.
I.e.: in order to move while in the vicinity of a protective unit there must be at least one open tile between the destination tile and the prot. unit, or the latter must first be destroyed.

They'd then at least be able to actually defend an empire, rather than hole up in cities while everything around them is being laid to waste.

 

[Antilogic]

You want zone of control back?

I'd rather see the Civ3 system of a free shot implemented. And Protective civs could receive a bonus free shot at units passing by in the open.

You could add another promotion tree to the game, even...

 

[notagoodname]

Right now spiritual is actually a far better defensive trait. I just switch to nationalism or slavery, draft/slave a unit when under threat and then switch back when im out of danger.

My suggestion to fix protective civs.
Make protective civs able to draft units at any time, even when out of nationalism. When in nationalism a draft should have half the unhappy face duration for a protective civ.

The draft without nationalism will still have the minimum 7 pop required for the draft so it should be balanced as there is no easy way to abuse it in ancient times.

 

[JoeBlade]

You want zone of control back?

I'd rather see the Civ3 system of a free shot implemented. And Protective civs could receive a bonus free shot at units passing by in the open.

You could add another promotion tree to the game, even...

Oh, that's would be just as well for me It would indeed open up a couple of new options, such as an additional promotion tree.

 

[Antilogic]

My suggestion to fix protective civs.
Make protective civs able to draft units at any time, even when out of nationalism. When in nationalism a draft should have half the unhappy face duration for a protective civ.

I think that's a sketchy way to do it. I like how the current game traits don't add additional abilities or brand-new specials, but rather improve existing ones or simply grant abilities that are available to everyone for a cheaper price. Going back to what Joe said, you can add an entire system to the game, and then give Protective a leg up in that system (much like how Aggressive gets a leg up in the Combat promotion tree or Philosophical leaders get a leg up in the great person births).

 

[khumak]

My suggestion: drop all current bonuses and instead make protective units impossible to 'bypass' by enemies, as was the case with all units in previous civ versions.

That actually would be a pretty nice trait, especially for raging barbs. No bonuses but gives all of your units a 1 space zone of control around it's position.