Improvement changes

Koshling

Vorlon
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
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Starting a new thread for this because there are lots of potential sub-topics, and people are likely to have a lot of opinions/ideas.

Anyway, two issues I wanted to raise myself under this banner:

1) Improvements that upgrade after you discover a tech take ages to do so when worked, yet (apart from the cottage line) can easily be built in their upgraded state. This means that any existing lower-level improvemnt in the line (e.g. - seed camps when you get the tech for farms) are actually worse than nothing at all in many ways!

I propose two changes:

1.1) Workers can build the improved version on top of the obsoleted version. Optionally there could be a discount, but I don't think that's necessary personally. This is a simple enough DLL change.

1.2) Regularise the time-to-grow for all improvement lines so that behaviour is consistent. Thus seed camp->farm, mine->shaft mine, log gatherer->lumberjack all change to upgrade over time if worked, and all allow workers to build the improved version over the top. This makes life better than currently for farms/mines, but worse for lumberjacks (benefit is making it regular - I can't see any reason for it not to be)

2) Cottages need a boost. In Vanilla BTS cottages were always the goto improvement, because by the time they eventually develop into towns they are very powerful. In vanilla BTS they were a bit TOO strong relative to farms, but in C2C the dial has swung hugely in the other direction. Uniquely with the cottage line, you have to wait for them to develop, and getting one pillaged is a big set-back. To balance this they should be strong improvements in their later stages, but currently just aren't compared to tech'd out farms, on pretty much any terrain farms can be built on. The main reason for this is all the pluses that farms get from techs (there are a lot of +1 food to farms techs).

Concretely I propose:
2.1) Various tech-based pluses to the cottage line. Other people are better at the details of that sort of thing than I, but I was thinking of things like:
+1 gold to hamlets,villages,towns from <some middle age trade related tech>
+1 hammer to villages,towns from <some political or mild urbanisation tech - feudalism say>
Ideally cottages should get a similar number (most applying at the hamlet or above level I'd say) of tech-based plusses that farms do (slightly less because of their innate development through the line towards towns).
 
1. They still provide the resource.

However, I originally had them upgrade when you got the tech. Then I had them upgrade as soon as you worked them. Next I tried using the same number of turns as for the cottages. Now they are a mix but are at about 1/3rd (or 1/10th) of the time for cottages.
 
If i havent missed anything C2C is also missing the Emancipation concept for cottages. farm starts off with +8 food while cottages take x00 turns to fully grow.

Both the insane amount of foreign trade commerce AND the river buildings providing 1-3 commerce for river tiles almost obsolete building cottages concerning usefulness (ATM i got a game on Emperor turn 650/4000(Marathon) and i have finished building scysrapers and the 3gorges-dam by now) so it might be a problem that overall improvements are too strong and that farms might have to be weakened a bit.

Neither Lumber-related improvements nor any mill improvement seem viable to me until modern age compared to both farm and mine. the civics also seem to skip the mills in terms of bonification.

if i missed something i'm sorry but i dont have enough overview of the mod yet :D

one concept that i do like is the way of restricting early research due to limits to possible boosts of commerce. still both rivers and trade routes don't seem to be fully considered in this concept of restricting strong research
 
the technology organic chemistry gives the workshop +:hammers: . But the factory and the industrial complex don't get any bonuses
 
1) Improvements that upgrade after you discover a tech take ages to do so when worked, yet (apart from the cottage line) can easily be built in their upgraded state. This means that any existing lower-level improvemnt in the line (e.g. - seed camps when you get the tech for farms) are actually worse than nothing at all in many ways!

This is not so for a lot of the improvements. Early gatherer improvements can often be placed in a bamboo/forest/savannah/tall grass while the later improvements auto-remove the feature on the plot. Taking the time to let it upgrade on it's own means the feature, with it's +1 or 2:hammers: or +1:food:, stays. Alongside a river this is "costing" a :commerce: instead while not along a river there's no downside.
If this is not intended then upgrading would work, and letting it grow into should also remove non-compatible feature, but as far as I know it IS intended.
This is I keep Workers, plain non-upgraded Workers, around, in case of an improvement on a feature being removed some how I can rebuild the base version and keep the feature, and if settling new areas I can keep features there too when building base improvements.

Cheers
 
My current solution to mines and the like taking far too long to upgrade is simple. Sack the improvement and then send in the workers to fix it. That way you get :gold: and a bit of xp for your trouble. It also helps with speeding things up around smaller cities that don't work every plot of land.
 
My current solution to mines and the like taking far too long to upgrade is simple. Sack the improvement and then send in the workers to fix it. That way you get :gold: and a bit of xp for your trouble. It also helps with speeding things up around smaller cities that don't work every plot of land.

:mischief:So what we should do is make it so that workers can't build mines or the upgrades only the lowest stone gather. Just like cottages.

Or turn off the upgrade and make you build the new improvement.:mischief:

Those are the only two options available from the XML side. It will require SDK work for something else. Something along the lines of "if the worker unit can build the upgrade then instead of using the time it takes normally it takes a % of that time based on the % of turns to upgrade from working".
 
:mischief:So what we should do is make it so that workers can't build mines or the upgrades only the lowest stone gather. Just like cottages.

Or turn off the upgrade and make you build the new improvement.:mischief:

Those are the only two options available from the XML side. It will require SDK work for something else. Something along the lines of "if the worker unit can build the upgrade then instead of using the time it takes normally it takes a % of that time based on the % of turns to upgrade from working".

That's on my TODO list.
 
If we're going to do that, then I'd request that the entire line of mines does not remove any features and the farms don't remove savannah or tall grass. I find its important NOT to go around upgrading my mines as doing so would remove the forests... but if I let them grow the forest remains and the plot is more valuable.
 
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