Improving City Flipping

[Furry Spatula]

the thing is the troops dont switch. If you take this for an example. i have 10 knights in a city and about 10 around it. Im at war and this captured city is the front line. the city is size 6, knights are the best offensive unit in the game, my enemy has horsemen, longbowmen, and swordsmen. The city recently flipped, this caused the city to gain one spearman or pikeman, i cant remember. So what happened to my 10 knights? They didn't add to the pop of the city, the ppl i'm fighting still dont have knights, i mean they just got slaughetered by a buch of townspeople, The peasants are better at fighting than the units of the civ, that is the thing that gets me.

Its a pain to be fighting a war, you get a little stuck and you loose 1/4 of your military at the front lines b/c the townspeople are the best fighters in the game.

I dont think we should be given a warning, but the troops in the city should be given an option, withdraw( thus sustaning some casualties or damage), or destroy the rebels( thus sustaining some damage or casualties but keeping the city at a reduced population)

If the city pop is at 1/2 of your garrisonthen you can gain a third option, Raise the city(and since you have so many troops there you wont incure any injuries at all)

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by A E Butterfield
WWII not Ghandi made them leave!).

Everybody else in the world thinks Gandhi was very influential in arranging a somewhat peaceful transfer of power. India flipped.

And no city rebels during a war and gets away with it!

Rebellion is always a capital crime. Except when you win (think George Washington).

The Warsaw uprising was crushed in 1944 as the Germans had a large enough garrison.

Most of the city was not in rebellion, just the Jewish quarter. Indeed, the entire rebellion started with a single pistol used to steal a couple dozen rifles. Tied up two elite divisions for a month. Quite a good effort. Virtually no support from the rest of the (Christian) city.

The problem is that this encourages barbarianism, like razing, starving and ethnic cleansing, rather than encouraging a peaceful takeover by a superior culture!

A lot of other historical leaders have felt the same way. Then they wonder why nobody likes them! Well, that's realism for ya.

 

[Peteus]

Everybody else in the world thinks Gandhi was very influential in arranging a somewhat peaceful transfer of power. India flipped.

Maybe yes, but:
A) Britain didn't lose their garrison!
B) India was a vast nation, rich in culture, with an occupying force that had no hope to control them once they put their mind to independance.

I have no problem with a situation like that. I get my tail in a knot when a civ whos power is trivial to mine somehow encourages civilian rabble to defeat a garrison which, given time, could probably slaughter the entire civ and raze all of their cities! Where was this mighty force when my tanks rolled in and killed off their defenders in the first place?

 

[cutiestar]

Hey maybe the other culture was so wonderful the garrison also flipped, I mean if those soldiers are living in the same city, and the culture is so great that the citizens decide to flip, why not the soldiers.

i am thinking along the lines of maybe a Somalian army taking a distant american city, and then as you'd expect when the american citizens flip back to america, i'd say those somalian soldiers are cheering and flipping with them

Afterall soldiers are just humans with a job.

 

[Polonius]

I love all these debates on how logical or realistic the game is! (And I don't mean that sarcastically - posters have some fascinating knowledge and ideas to share about historical and military aspects).

However, we do need to deal with the game as it IS rather than spend too much time beefing about how we'd like it to be. I think that it's possible to assess, within reasonable limits, what control you can get over flips. The random element we just have to learn to live with, and devise our own little story for what just happened.

Obsessives and control freaks who get enraged when something happens that they can't manipulate (and cough, cough - I do admit to a fair touch of this myself....) are always going to have to keep a teddy bear on their desk to punch - or a dummy to spit.

My personal response is a rhythmical two fisted pounding of the desk (during which the keyboard must be induced to dance around in terror that the dreaded two fisted keyboard smash is about to be administered) - followed by a long draw out Kung Fu style yell along the lines of "Baaaaaaaaaaaaastaaaaards"!!!

I can clear the building of family and pets in about 2 minutes when I play Civ3. But then I enjoy a good emotional workout.

 

[Zouave]

Simple solution:

Go to the Editor (Culture section of the Rules) AND CHANGE THE VALUES. Flipping will be less likely.

Disappearing garrisons are unacceptable - and historically extremely rare, and even then not without serious civilian casualties.

 

[A E Butterfield]

Originally posted by Zachriel

Everybody else in the world thinks Gandhi was very influential in arranging a somewhat peaceful transfer of power. India flipped.

** Actually Gandhi came from South Africa. It was the near Japanese victory and the bankrupting of the British economy by WWII that persuaded the British to just give up. The French tried to hang on in indochina, followed by the Americans and others, but in that case there was a massive amount of foreign - Eastern Bloc and Chinese - support for a military campaign that lasted 30 years (1945-1975)

Rebellion is always a capital crime. Except when you win (think George Washington).

** Again, a long campaign involving armies. The French helped the Americans.

Most of the city was not in rebellion, just the Jewish quarter. Indeed, the entire rebellion started with a single pistol used to steal a couple dozen rifles. Tied up two elite divisions for a month. Quite a good effort. Virtually no support from the rest of the (Christian) city.

** That was the 1943 Warsaw Getto uprising. There was a more general uprising by the Christian resistance to take the city before the Soviets arrived in 1944.

All major revolutions and wars of independence take years and involve military and guerilla actions that take years. Peace transitions - like in India (before partition) - only occur when the occupier lacks the will to fight, and I doubt many Civ III players lack that particular will.


Andrew Butterfield

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by A E Butterfield
Actually Gandhi came from South Africa.

No, he came from India, studied in England, lived in South Africa, then India again. His cultural and philosophical influence was vast, and extended even to distant America.

Originally posted by Zachriel
There was a more general uprising by the Christian resistance to take the city before the Soviets arrived in 1944.

Good example. The Soviets conquered eastern Europe. Then inexplicably several decades later the Soviet empire dissolved before our eyes. Most of their garrison units dissolved also.

Peace transitions - like in India (before partition) - only occur when the occupier lacks the will to fight, and I doubt many Civ III players lack that particular will.

The will to fight is a quality of the civilization as depicted by war weariness and general happiness, not the will of the individual leader, except in the case of despotism, of course.

The British held onto India as a colony for centuries, a country of hundreds of millions using troops in the tens of thousands. It was always in danger of flipping. It didn't flip because the British culture was strong and had great advantages for the Indian people. When the British culture no longer held out advantages, British power became ephemeral.

Soviets . . . .
. . . lack that particular will.

No one ever accused the communists of lack of will. Nevertheless, their empire disappeared.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Zouave
Disappearing garrisons are unacceptable - and historically extremely rare, and even then not without serious civilian casualties.

The Soviet Union had plenty of armies. They are now the former Soviet Union.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Zouave
Disappearing garrisons are unacceptable - and historically extremely rare, and even then not without serious civilian casualties.

Oh, and the former Soviet armies are currently looking for employment in the private sector.

 

[Kefka]

Originally posted by Polonius


My personal response is a rhythmical two fisted pounding of the desk (during which the keyboard must be induced to dance around in terror that the dreaded two fisted keyboard smash is about to be administered) - followed by a long draw out Kung Fu style yell along the lines of "Baaaaaaaaaaaaastaaaaards"!!!

I can clear the building of family and pets in about 2 minutes when I play Civ3. But then I enjoy a good emotional workout.

Thats the reason I keep the boxes from all my games just so I can beat up the game boxes when I get pissed at the game, I used to hit the wall but that can get expensive to re plaster the wall and akward to explain why there is a foot shaped hole in my wall