in this topic: we post ideas for railroads

[darkace77450]

I don't think railroads are necessary to complete this game, but a small part of me misses them nonetheless. So in this post, feel free to post your ideas on how you'd implement them. I don't have any ideas myself other than they'd be available at Steam Power. Perhaps trade routes to and/or from a city connected by rail could grant a boost to production, say +1 for every worked mine, quarry, and factory?

 

[Candido Rondon]

I'm looking to make a mod that adds a Railyard to the Industrial Zone. This will allow the city to build a Train trading unit that requires the target city to also have a Railyard. Of course, it probably shouldn't be able to embark either. Bigger trade yields to target cities, and it replaces Roads with Railroads, which dramatically speed up unit speed.

 

[darkace77450]

I'm looking to make a mod that adds a Railyard to the Industrial Zone. This will allow the city to build a Train trading unit that requires the target city to also have a Railyard. Of course, it probably shouldn't be able to embark either. Bigger trade yields to target cities, and it replaces Roads with Railroads, which dramatically speed up unit speed.

Interesting idea. The developers seem intent on limiting the number of buildings in a district to three. Would you disregard this limit? Or would you make the rail yard mutually exclusive with an existing building (Factory or Power Plant, presumably) in the same vein as the Barracks and Stables or Art and Archeological Museums are mutually exclusive?

 

[azzaare]

Interesting idea. The developers seem intent on limiting the number of buildings in a district to three. Would you disregard this limit? Or would you make the rail yard mutually exclusive with an existing building (Factory or Power Plant, presumably) in the same vein as the Barracks and Stables or Art and Archeological Museums are mutually exclusive?

I think it would be smart to have it mutually exclusive since the AOE of factories and power plants is not cumulative anymore. It is still interesting to have an industrial zone in most of your cities, but only a few needs the factories and power plants.

 

[RealAntithesis]

No mutually exclusive buildings please. These are just an artificial way of creating some sort of strategic choice mechanic when developing cities. Unless the mutual exclusivity exists historically in real life, doing something like this in game is just forcing the player to make compromises that don't make sense, and hence lessens enjoyment.

It is enjoyable to eventually develop a city after many millennia into a super metropolis (and for it to look as such on the map).

But rail roads - I definitely support that

 

[Captain Potato]

I see no reason why a station can't be its own district. In real life a main station (e.g. Birmingham New Street) is pretty big.

If two cities each have a station they would automatically create a main line between them (and due to the placement of the stations this line wouldn't be exactly the same as the roads from trade routes but would likely run adjacent to them, which is actually more realistic). Further, within individual cities, a station would create lines connecting up districts and neighbourhoods (representing your smaller stations in towns, underground systems, commuting routes etc).

I think it works conceptually. The main thing is you need to give substantial bonuses for actually having them (not just movement speed) e.g. bonuses to trade routes or maybe even increasing the trade route cap. The bonuses need to be strong just based on experience with how crappy the airport district is at the moment. Building railways should be its own little revolution.

 

[Victoria]

To me the railway line woukd roughly follow a road so there is no reason to dirty the map with more lines.
I do think its a good way to move units faster, as long as they cannot come off the railway before the target city.

 

[Captain Potato]

I was just thinking, the bonus from the railway could be to increase the power of other districts; industrial zones give more production, culture districts and wonders generate more tourism etc. Make it so that each effect individually is small but that combined with lots of other districts it becomes very strong. That way a railway becomes more and more important in the really big cities with lots of districts.

If you think in real life, transport gets people from towns (neighbourhoods) to main shopping districts, so the shops get more money, to factories for work, so the factories have a better pool of workers etc.

 

[Jarms48]

I'd put railway stations in the Industrial Zone, as an alternate building to factories.

Same production output and specialist slot as the workshop, same maintenance cost as the factory. A trader would then "build" the railway line similar to roads, between IZ's only, they would "embark onto the train" similar to them embarking onto ships from a harbour district.

I'd give all units a fixed movement when moving over railways, avoiding the current problem with roads where cavalry can move incredible distances leaving their support units behind.

 

[Captain Potato]

Just make it a city centre building if you want it in an already existing district. The only other district that would make sense from a real life perspective is the commercial district (that's probably just because in real life commercial districts tend to be near city centres). I mean a city will have several stations to all kinds of districts, but the main station tends to be near the centre. For instance, Manchester has a station on Oxford Road, which is kinda like the campus district, but the main station is Piccadilly, which is like 5 minutes walk from the Arndale (shopping mall) and 10 minutes from Albert Square (town hall). Are there real world examples where a cities main station is in an industrial area?

Just want to elaborate on my earlier ideas. So you've got inter-city lines as well as inner-city lines. You can split the two up and give different bonuses for each. Have the station (City Terminus?) building unlock with steam power, and this covers your inter-city lines (as above, railroad gets created between nearby cities if they both have a station). There should be some small bonus to trade routes if two cities are connected by railroad.

For inner-city connections, we want a separate tech/civic (thinking urbanisation) that allows this (though it will also require a station to have been built first). Rather than then having an additional building, how about a city project? So having built a station and having unlocked urbanisation, you'll have a one-time city project for building a metro system in that city. I said above you could make this give bonuses to other districts; let me change that slightly. What if the bonus was towards specialists in the city? That keeps the idea that this is something you want mainly in very large cities, and goes with the theme that the transport system is increasing the efficiency of your workforce.

(Also, the lacklustre public transport policy could then be changed into something that benefits the metro system)

 

[UWHabs]

I'd say you make it a city-centre building that gives you something like +1 production per district in the city, and then if you send a trader between cities with a railyard, it will both lay a railroad track and provide an increase to the internal yields (maybe also improve speed - so traders on railroads move 2 tiles per turn?).

Then if you have railroads on the map, to me they should just be a standard 1/10th of your unit's total move points, so every unit moves 10 tiles on a railroad. So a regular infantry would cost 0.2 move points per tile, a cavalry would cost 0.4 move points per tile, etc...

 

[Candido Rondon]

Part of the problem here is that trains are used for various things. A train station represents the use of trains mostly to transport people, and I would expect that to be in the Central District or the Commercial Hub. Freight trains, on the other hand, would go to a railyard, which I would expect to be in the Industrial Zone.

 

[Jarms48]

Part of the problem here is that trains are used for various things. A train station represents the use of trains mostly to transport people, and I would expect that to be in the Central District or the Commercial Hub. Freight trains, on the other hand, would go to a railyard, which I would expect to be in the Industrial Zone.

Maybe trains should be more specialized traders. If you have a frieght depot in an IZ you lose food from your trade route but gain hammers. If you have a station in the city-centre you swap hammers for food.

 

[Candido Rondon]

Maybe trains should be more specialized traders. If you have a frieght depot in an IZ you lose food from your trade route but gain hammers. If you have a station in the city-centre you swap hammers for food.

I think you've hit on something here. Trade Routes are already affected by the districts in the inbound and outbound cities, so it would be easy enough to have a Railyard building in the IZ that increases the production of inbound Train trade routes and some kind of Central Station either in the CC or CH that increases gold of inbound routes.

EDIT: It would also be handy to have this based on two different buildings because it would allow train trade routes to be set up between cities that may be lacking one district or another.

 

[Jarms48]

I think you've hit on something here. Trade Routes are already affected by the districts in the inbound and outbound cities, so it would be easy enough to have a Railyard building in the IZ that increases the production of inbound Train trade routes and some kind of Central Station either in the CC or CH that increases gold of inbound routes.

EDIT: It would also be handy to have this based on two different buildings because it would allow train trade routes to be set up between cities that may be lacking one district or another.

Using Polands Sukiennice as an example, I'd make a "freight depot" building available in the IZ as an alternative to the factory/power plant -- similar to the barracks/stable choice. I'd make its stats something like:

- Production Cost: 440
- Maintenance: 2 gold / 3 gold (depending which building it's an alternative to)
- Technology: steam power
- District: Industrial Zone
- Effect:

- +2 production
- +1 citizen slot
- +1 great engineer point per turn
- International trade routes from this city gain +2 production
- Domestic trade routes from this city gain +1 production
- a trader will "embark" at the IZ and build a railway as it travels along its route, traders using this route will move at 2 tiles per turn
​

That's just my first impression. Change it as you like. I hope that last point makes sense, I'm thinking of a process similar to how a trader will move into the harbour to "embark" into a ship. Instead the trader would "embark" onto a train and build the line similar to how they make roads currently.

 

[VeronicaCardican]

Many good ideas around here.

I wouldn't like to see a railway district because it seems to narrow a concept to spend a district on. Airports suffer from the same flaw atrocity already but they are somewhat justified because air units are a new special kind of unit then.

The above IZ building is a sensible approach and similar to what I was thinking when suggesting the Agricultural District.

However internal trade routes are already the overwhelmingly predominant means to increase production in select cities and I see no pressing reason to improve them even further. The mutual exclusivity with factories/power plants is a non-choice because there is little incentive to build overlapping factories/power plants since the stacking is gone and the new building adds production to the host city much like a factory/power plant would.

Coming from real life and previous civ versions there is three primary aspects to railroads that could be added:
- the logistical aspect regarding easier troop movement in home territory
- the industrial aspect regarding the transportation of large amounts of material to factories
- the commercial aspect regarding increased consumer traffic and transportation of retail goods

The logistical aspect
I believe that Civ VI got this one covered already. Upon entry into the industrial era, existing roads give a discount to movement point costs. This probably not only represents the improvement of the road network per se but also the utilisation of new means of transport like railways.

While it is to some extent true that movement by rail should ignore movement points and treat all units equally, this is not strictly necessary from a gaming perspective. If you don't want your tanks arriving faster than your artillery, the tanks need to slow down.

Adding new movement options could also conflict with the modern era road upgrade. Rails would be superficial if they were worse than modern roads or modern roads would become pointless beside a railway network.

Therefore I don't think, that railroads should tangle with the movement aspect of the game.


The industrial aspect
Production is in high demand so bonus gears would be on everyone's priority. In order for railroads to be a meaningful choice, it wouldneed to come at some cost or force otherwise meaningful decisions.

Employing a building that excludes something else which is normally desirable would work. But as said above, excluding factory/power plant doesn't work like that.

Making it a district doesn't work either because there is already a district which promotes industry. If anything, it would need to be a side effect like with encampment buildings.

In general though, adding industry is a sensible choice.


The commercial aspect
With better means of transport comes increased trade. Making railways a means of making money seems natural.

It also wouldn't step on the toes of any other concept currently in place. One could argue that lategame trade-enhancing policies alteady take into account the utilisation of new means of transport but that conclusion isn't necessary. Most are spun in a way that political development is the key means of increased trade.

So placing a building into the commercial hub could make sense but it would need another mechanism than just adding a flat amount of gold like the other buildings do. I also have reservations against adding more utility to the commercial hub because it already is on everyone's to-do list. For the same reason, adding a new trader slot via a commercial hub building is out of the question.


The conclusion
Taking into account what I said above, I see three possible avenues to treating railroad in Civ VI:

The Railway Station District(industrial era)
Can only be placed next to the city center
Adjacency bonus +2 production if adjacent to an industrial zone, +2 gold if adjacent to a commercial hub, +1 gold and +1 production per two adjacent districts

Yields: +1 production internal trade, +2 gold international trade

1st building - Main Station (comes with the district)
+1 gold, +1 housing, +1 amenities

2nd building - Freight Trains(Modern Era)
2 gold maintenance
+3 production, +1 production per industrial zone building in the city, +1 production internal trade yield if no industrial zone in the city, +1 production per bonus resource and strategic resource produced in the city if no industrial zone in the city

OR

Commercial Warehouse (same tech as Freight Trains)
+2 gold per commercial hub building in the city, +1 gold per luxury resource produced in the city, +1 trade route capacity if no commercial hub in the city

3rd building - Rapid International Trains (Information Era)
4 gold maintenance
+2 tourism per international trade route, +1 culture per internal trade route

District project: Shipping Effort Provides gold equal to 15% of production and an equal amount of Great Merchant and Great Engineer points

Espionage action: Disrupt Transportation network Nulifies the effect of internal trade for x turns


While I'm not the most fond of making railways a district, I think that this might work out. Placement restrictions force players to plan ahead and possibly hamper themselves early for a later bonus. It reduces dependability on commercial hubs which is a good thing in my opinion.

But you could also do:

Building: Central Railway Terminal
industrial era city center building
6 gold
+1 housing per neighborhood, +1 adjacency bonus to all districts, +1 tourism per wonder, +1 tourism per 3 great works/artifacts, +1 tourism per seaside resort

This one pretty much enhaces all aspects of the city and works best in your core cities to make them even more powerful. Adjacency boni would be doubled via their respective policies which slightly helps them not being overshadowed as much by the building boost policies.


The Trade Post Enhancer
With the advent of railroads, traders get a new option. Instead of regular trade missions, they can be sent to improve trade post.

Eligible targets are only cities with a trade post. The mission has the same duration as a regular trade mission but nets no profit. Instead, the existing trade post will become a railway terminal with the following effects:

If in a foreign city, the tourism bonus from having a trade route to that city increases by +5% (non stackable), spies in that city get an increase to their escape chance and return speed and normal trade routes have their yields increased by 20%.

If in a city state, the trade route effect is as above but you will also earn a one time bonus of influence points equal to the amount of envoys you have in that city state.

If in an own city, the city will get a permanent +2 gold and +1 production, internal trade routes will add a +10% growth modifier and units produced in the city get +1 movement point in their first turn only.


Those are subtle boni but you are not giving up more than the yield of one trade route for the standard duration.

 

[Elucidus]

Well, a train hub in the city center could affect the production (of everything) of the city itself (including the districts), while a train hub in the commercial could affect the trade routes, and in the industrial it could affect the production of non-district tiles, like mines and farms. This is more an add-on to some of the ideas above.

 

[RealAntithesis]

I'd make a "freight depot" building available in the IZ as an alternative to the factory/power plant -- similar to the barracks/stable choice.

Is there some sort of rule that says that cities can't have both factories and trains (or 'freight depots')? These aren't really mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Elucidus]

Most definitely not, mutually exclusive buildings are an artificial way to add a strategic layer. I personally don't like them, since I have yet to see a good reason for them.

 

[UWHabs]

Is there some sort of rule that says that cities can't have both factories and trains (or 'freight depots')? These aren't really mutually exclusive concepts.

Well, there's nothing in real life that says you can't have a barracks and a stable in a city, or an art museum and an archaeological one either, but the game has to give you some choices sometimes.