Inadequate power supply=problems with high end PCs

i have a 250 ps. i am running an amd64 an x800xt, a dvd drive, a cdburner and two hdds. I run the game just fine and my computer hasnt been shut off for over a week now. havent had a single issue. its not the power supply.
that being said my new case is coming in a couple of days with a 480 psu. i am only using this one because my other one(supposedly 420) fried out when i installed my new mobo and processor. ill feel a lot safer with a more powerful psu.
 
Steve2000 said:
I see lots of manufacturers hyping dual 12V rails - is this worth it? It seems to me that two 12V rails that each only have 15-18amps wouldn't be as good as one 12V rail at 28-35amps. Thoughts? Opinions?
Now, there you go asking a question that I don't know the answer to. Making me look bad. :p In all seriousness, I really don't know why you would need dual +12V rails. My assumption is that it is related to SLI or some other requirement of a high-end system. Who knows, maybe one day all PSU's will be dual +12V rails. I also recall reading somewhere that when evaluating the total amperage available at 12 volts, you cannot just add the two numbers together. It is a 2+2=3 kind of situation. In other words, if one rail is 16A and the other is 18A, the total amperage available is something like 28 or 30 amps rather than the 34A sum of the two rails. But, don't quote me on any of this, as I really do not know.

Steve2000 said:
Also - some PSUs put a fan on the top of the unit. Does there need to be much space between the fan and the top of the case for the fan to be effective? Looking inside my case it doesn't seem like there is much space up there - would I be better off with fans just on the back or sides?
First off, the fan is on the bottom not the top. The fan actually points down towards the CPU and sucks air off of the CPU into the power supply. It is then expelled out the back of the PSU. Personally, I'm a big fan of dual fan PSU's. And, I especially like the ones that have a plug so that the motherboard can monitor/control the PSU fan. Do you really need a dual fan PSU? Hard to say. It depends on how many case fans you have, plus the case air flow.
 
480w here. I'm thinking its plenty.

It is not the hardware. Bad RAM? As a wise man said, "[Deleted] please." 25% of the people who bought the game have bad RAM that ONLY came to light after installing Civ IV... riiiiiiiight. Believe that, and I can hook you up with this bridge in Brooklyn... C'mon.

It is the software. Repeat: it is the SOFTWARE. Realize that, and stop trying to make chicken salad out of chicken [Deleted]. It ain't gonna turn out right; I don't care HOW much mayonnaise you use!

Throwing components at your system to play a game when (presumably) every other program you run on the thing works fine makes less sense than a lobotomy patient spewing Word Salad. If you're using this as an excuse to upgrade, hey, fine, as long as you know you're lying to yourself. Don't expect the problem to be fixed, because it can't be. Not by unplugging one card and plugging in another, when the fault lies in the software.

Downloading drivers, etc., might get you something --probably not, but hey, at least they're free--excepting for your time --how valuable that is depends on you.

All these bandaids being bandied about are merely workarounds until the problem is fixed, and the problem can only be fixed by someone with the source code for the game. Realize that.


Later!

--The Clown to the Left

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oldStatesman said:
Absolutely correct. The wattage is secondary to the amperage, especially the +12V. Great points - you beat me to it.

Don't skimp on a power supply ...spend the extra money and get a good one if you plan on using your pc for high end apps. In the long run, the cost is less, as it will last longer, give less problems since it wil give a 'cleaner' current, and also it will help prolong the life of your other componemts.

Right, so true. My antec 350W has more juice on the 12A rail than many 500W PSUs. Only get a good brand PSU; Antec is one of the best. Look at the stats for each PSU. A few years ago, my cheap ~200W PSU failed, and it ended up frying everything in the case; the motherboard, hard drives, CPU, etc. I lost $2000 worth of stuff because of a cheap PSU.

For a good 500W PSU expect to pay $75 or more.
 
Clown2TheLeft said:
It is the software. Repeat: it is the SOFTWARE. Realize that, and stop trying to make chicken salad out of chicken [Deleted]. It ain't gonna turn out right; I don't care HOW much mayonnaise you use!

Except that some people such as myself suffer problems in other games as well, so in that case an examination of the hardware is a good idea. If that weren't true, then yes I'd agree with your tenents; better hardware won't make the game run, because it's buggy to begin with.
 
Clown2TheLeft said:
Bad RAM? As a wise man said, "[Deleted] please." 25% of the people who bought the game have bad RAM that ONLY came to light after installing Civ IV... riiiiiiiight. Believe that, and I can hook you up with this bridge in Brooklyn... C'mon.

And why not? Think about it - you have, lets say, 1GB of memory in your rig. You play games like Doom 3, Quake 4, and any number of games that are pretty system intensive. However, in those games, the levels load, you play, then they are dumped from memory and the next level loads. While I am sure they are big, they may never hit the upper regions of memory. Especially if, say, the bad blocks of memory are on the higher addresses on the chips. Many games may not ever hit that high of a memory address.

Now, you start playing Civ 4. For the sake of argument, you start a Huge map with as many civs as you can stuff onto it. The games starts out fine, since all you can see are you and your immediate surroundings. However, as the game progresses, it has to load more and more into memory, because there is more for the game to keep track of. More graphics, more units, more cities, etc. You get the picture. Suddenly, the memory it needs has grown higher. Then, out of the blue, you get a BSOD or a CTD. You may or may not get an error report, but if you do get one, it may give you a memory address. If it does not give one, check your event viewer.

Write that number down, and try again. When you crash again, check the memory address it gives, once again, if it gives one. If you start to see duplicate addresses show up, you should be suspect of that memory. I did not say toss it and buy new, I merely think it is time to test it, to see if it indeed related.

I like to tell people to check their memory because it is simple to test, and in my line of work (I am an IT Professional) I have found bad memory happens more often than you care to think about. In many cases it does no harm, but every now and then, it pops up.

Hardware does fail and does develop flaws over time. Let me see heat and electricity run through you constantly for weeks or months and see how you feel. Electronics fail. While this is not the only solution for CIV, I am sure, it is one area the USER can check and troubleshoot.

Yes, you should not have to tweak your own system to play a game. However, how will you know if you have a hardware issue unless you give everything a good check?

Yeah, 25% does seem a bit high, but they should at least check their memory, just to verify that it is good.

Clown2TheLeft said:
It is the software. Repeat: it is the SOFTWARE. Realize that, and stop trying to make chicken salad out of chicken [Deleted]. It ain't gonna turn out right; I don't care HOW much mayonnaise you use!

I have read through some of your other posts, and you are quite bitter about Civ 4 not working for you. I am sorry you have had problems, but there are many many people who are not. Be patient. There is no way they can account for the myriad of system and software configs that are out there, so it takes time.
 
Steve2000 said:
I am running an old GeForce MX440...
Hmm. I just UPgraded (SHAME! BOO!) to the same card and I'm having CTD problems with Civ4. How's the game running on your system at the moment?
Just wondering if it's an issue with the card or no...

EDIT: Oh, and I'm running a 300W power supply. Is that bad? :confused:
 
EvilFuzzyDoom said:
Hmm. I just UPgraded (SHAME! BOO!) to the same card and I'm having CTD problems with Civ4. How's the game running on your system at the moment?
Just wondering if it's an issue with the card or no...

EDIT: Oh, and I'm running a 300W power supply. Is that bad? :confused:

The 300W is fine for the GeForce 4 MX440 - my orginal question had to do with upgrading to a more power-intensive card.

I am not having too many problems with Civ4 with that card. Occasionally I get a weird graphical glitches where my desktop reverts to 256 colors and 800x600 after I quit the game. I was having the food yield issue until the patch. The first 2-3 turns of playing a game are very slow, but after that the game moves quite well on Medium graphics settings. After a few hours of play I get a weird bug where all I can see is the terrain for a few seconds but then it comes back. Actually I am a bit nervous to upgrade my video card as some people with very expensive cards have had problems that is why I want to make sure I do everything right - upgrade the PSU along with the card to ensure stability.

My System:
Pentium 4 - 2.8GHz (w/ HT)
1 Gb of SDRAM
Most recent drivers
 
Conroe said:
Steve2000 said:
It seems to me that two 12V rails that each only have 15-18amps wouldn't be as good as one 12V rail at 28-35amps. Thoughts? Opinions?
Now, there you go asking a question that I don't know the answer to. Making me look bad. :p In all seriousness, I really don't know why you would need dual +12V rails.
In some of the ATX specs there's an upper limit to the maximum amperage allowed -- 20A max continuous current on the 12V rail IIRC. To get those high wattages (for mainly marketing purposes), you're forced to split rails to stay within spec. Dual rails can also be useful if they're being used to power different power hungry devices. An increased draw for one won't affect the other as much if they're truely independent.

That all said, quality is much more important than wattages or "claimed" amps. I'd trust a 330W Seasonic S12 over a no-name 600W+ PSU any day. Besides, those questionable PSUs tend to have horrible efficiency numbers, especially since they're being run at 20% of their rated wattages more often than not.

[edit]
Double checked on the spec. ATX12V v2.2 calls for 20A max current "to meet 240VA safety requirements."
[/edit]
 
Steve2000 said:
The 300W is fine for the GeForce 4 MX440 - my orginal question had to do with upgrading to a more power-intensive card.

I am not having too many problems with Civ4 with that card. Occasionally I get a weird graphical glitches where my desktop reverts to 256 colors and 800x600 after I quit the game. I was having the food yield issue until the patch. The first 2-3 turns of playing a game are very slow, but after that the game moves quite well on Medium graphics settings. After a few hours of play I get a weird bug where all I can see is the terrain for a few seconds but then it comes back. Actually I am a bit nervous to upgrade my video card as some people with very expensive cards have had problems that is why I want to make sure I do everything right - upgrade the PSU along with the card to ensure stability.

My System:
Pentium 4 - 2.8GHz (w/ HT)
1 Gb of SDRAM
Most recent drivers

Righto then. I guess it's not a driver issue for me then :cry:
That means waiting for another patch!
 
I upgraded from a 300W PSU (Antec) to a 500W (Antec) one, but Civ4 still crashes somewhat at late game, using the newest patch (1.5). Overall with the new PSU i feel that the system is more stable, but that's ancidontal, I don't have any one thing to point to. So the crashes are most likely due to the buggie code in the game. I only have 512 MB of memory, that probably doesn't help either.
 
psu's are definitely at fault when running graphical intensive high power game like BF2... not sure on civ but its definitely possible. and that might explain blue screens or reboots. it doesnt really explain CTD or stuttering that alot of us is getting. that is definitely just bad programming and really needs to be sorted.

Id definitely recommend getting a good branded PSU over any 1700w noname budget $5 one. people fall for the wattage TOO MUCH. the watts are unimportant. the stability IS. they did a test in the UK here recently and half of all PSUs failed. in fact a few even exploded when stressed heavily. now THAT'S scary!!!
 
After Reading this thread, i realize that my ower supply is indeed poor. I recently received a new case and MB from my aunt. The MB and CPU were an upgrade for me (1.1ghz to 2.0ghz) but the case power supply was a downgrade and i didnt realize it till now (Went from 400w to 250w).

Tend to agree with Clown2theleft. The software is still flawed. Upgrading your power supply is a good idea for you CPU needs but i dont think it will make much difference when it comes to the game just yet.

Huge maps are simply unplayable in later rounds due to the lag you get. I just got done quitting a game. It went from 1 to 2 min waits in between turns to 10-15min waits as soon as i received a world map from an AI civ. It revealed the whole map and that was the end of the game for me.

My system has a 2.0gHz AMD, 1.25GB RAM, 128mb Radeon 9600. Not top of the line but well above the "Recommended Requirements" for the game. It chugs in later rounds. I literally can watch a TV show and come back to find my game still waiting on the next turn. Im glad to see im not the only one though. Guess i'll play small maps till the next patch.
 
Insein

The symptoms you describe are the classic pre-V1.52 symptoms.

Have you loaded Patch V1.52, if not do so- its a must have Patch

Regards
Zy
 
patch 152 is up and running. The only difference i can see between prepatch and post patch is that the game itself doesnt freeze any more. It just continues its turn but takes about 10-15 mins to complete it. Pre patch i never had it chug like this. When it froze, it simply froze and that was that. You had to hard boot. Now its a chore almost to play the game. turned down the graphics to low and turned off most of the animations and it still lags.

Hopefully it will be resolved soon.
 
In
C:\Documents and Settings\New User\My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CivilizationIV.ini

Try reversing "MemSaver", if its 0 change it to 1, if its 1 change it to 0 restart game

V1.52 - broadly - was aimed at lower spec machines when they sorted memory management, basicly they changed the way main RAM and Video RAM was used, saving memory for lower spec machines. For higher spec machines thats not an issue, so changing the MemSaver value from its current default stops that aspect, but you still get the improvement in other memory related issues

Regards
Zy
 
Zydor said:
In
C:\Documents and Settings\New User\My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\CivilizationIV.ini

Try reversing "MemSaver", if its 0 change it to 1, if its 1 change it to 0 restart game

V1.52 - broadly - was aimed at lower spec machines when they sorted memory management, basicly they changed the way main RAM and Video RAM was used, saving memory for lower spec machines. For higher spec machines thats not an issue, so changing the MemSaver value from its current default stops that aspect, but you still get the improvement in other memory related issues

Regards
Zy


What does the 1 and 0 mean? Like what settings am i turning on or off? Which one is preffered for low spec and high spec?
 
0 usually means "off" 1 usually means "on" cant remember which way round it is re low/high spec (high generaly indicates 1Gb or above for this change) machines

In any event, its a non-fatal change, if you get strange results just change it back.

Look inside that .ini file (open it in Notepad), scroll down to "MemSaver" (or use the Edit-find menu option). When you see the line, change the value shown. If it has no effect for you - or makes it worse, just change it back to the original value

Regards
Zy
 
thanks for the help but unfortunately it didnt do anything. Tried a huge map. Got to the point where i received a partial world size map from another civ and then it was over. Turns took about 8-10 mins to go. It was startiong to lag up to this point but i didnt have the whole map uncovered. Once that was revealed, it lagged hard.
 
Insein said:
thanks for the help but unfortunately it didnt do anything. Tried a huge map. Got to the point where i received a partial world size map from another civ and then it was over. Turns took about 8-10 mins to go. It was startiong to lag up to this point but i didnt have the whole map uncovered. Once that was revealed, it lagged hard.
I run civ4 on 3 different PC from my oldest pc (I finally gave it to a friend) to my newest. Even with 1gb my old pc couldn't run late game huge maps with civ4 (1.09 patch). Yet I knew my greatest weakness on my old pc was the motherboard. I have a strong feeling your motherboard has a lot to do with your pc can run huge maps or not.
 
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