Increasing historic and overall realism should be the focus

warpstorm said:
Why? Because games that when given a choice on a given feature to make it realistic or abstract it and make fun (for example historic war games tend to go the route of realism over all) , invariably end up catering to a very hard-core, very hard to please minority. Once a game (or genre - see war games and realistic combat sims) does this, that is the end of it's franchise (or it's genre - war games an d combat flight sims used to be the biggest genres around in the early 90s). Why? Because they weren't fun for anybody except the hard-core minority.

I think though that one needs to distinguish between "bottom-up" realism in details and overall "top-down" realism when looking at things from a "big picture" POV.

A good example is when Civ 3 implemented the strategic resources feature. It was fairly simplistic and abstract and perhaps not too realistic if you looked at it from a literal POV. Among other flaws, it's "one resource unit" per nation model isn't terribly detailed or realistic when you examine it closely.

OTOH, the need to model and include finding, fighting for, controlling, trading for and securing strategic resources is such a vital part of modelling overall historical accuracy that this feature made a huge improvement in increasing the "overall historic realism" of Civ 3 from prior Civ versions.

So what I am trying to say is that Civ 4 should focus on realism from the "big picture" POV and focus on that. It should NOT focus on realism in terms of making little details here and there more realistic if these details won't make the "big picture" look more realistic. And although Civ 3 did a good job of increasing the overall historic realism there is the potential to do much more.
 
warpstorm said:
I'm sorry, polypheus. I disagree. Civ to me is a game to try to beat. I don't like sandbox 'games' where there is no victory condition. There is not one of them I really enjoyed. I don't think I would buy Civ4 if they went that direction (or even play it when it'll be given to me).

I feel that Firaxis won't go in that direction, though.

I agree with polypheus on getting rid of both what he has called "flaws". But indeed, there should be victory conditions, but nothing could limit you in playing on - just for the love of the game - until 2050 and still see how you did anyway. I don't see the problem.

warpstorm said:
(Oh yeah, Alexander the Great had every intention of conquering the entire known world and was making reasonable progress before his untimely death).
It seems many leaders had these ambitions. No one so far, at least in an absolute sense, has ever achieve this ambition, or the country fell apart after the deadth of that leader. And the Romans were actually well aware of the continous pressure on their large empire. They kind of accepted the Rhine as a natural border after futile attempts to pass it and grab more German land. And in Brittan they even built Hadrianus' Wall to protect their empire from continous "barbarian" pressure. The wall was clearly built to last for ages. The Mongols conquered a vast amount of land, but didn't make it to get the cohesion it needed to last and eventually dissolved and diffused largely again in other countries. Whatever Pax there is, Pax Romana, Pax Mongoliana, Pax Brittanica, Pax Americana, keeping a large amount of land should somehow prove a very real challenge for the player. But domination can also mean having "friends" or friendly governments providing the desired strategic resources and foreign markets.

Jaca
 
Jaca said:
Whatever Pax there is, Pax Romana, Pax Mongoliana, Pax Brittanica, Pax Americana, keeping a large amount of land should somehow prove a very real challenge for the player. But domination can also mean having "friends" or friendly governments providing the desired strategic resources and foreign markets.

Yes! Another ally :) To me, I would like to see the numbers and variables and factors tweaked... it gets harder and harder to grow your empire, and a split is inevitable. The key to domination would then be making that one last extra push, just as your empire might be on the brink of despair, with people clamoring for war to end, for the troops to rest, for your colonies to be free.

Along with friendly governments, to give domination some advantageous strategy (instead of occupying cities one by one), sounds like a fun challenge to me.
 
I'm hearing this, and I'm thinking to myself, "How is this fun?"

All this talk of making it harder to conquer and survive is historically accurate, true. But how is it entertaining, or immersive? It sounds to me like it wouldn't be worth it to even try conquering others with these rules in, and you know what? That makes the game less entertaining, not more, even if it is historically accurate.

The only way these ideas can be made fun is if there is some way to mitigate or eliminate these ideas. Do you know what that means? More options, more in-depth gameplay. Do you know what that means? More work for the developers, and less fun for a good amount of the crowd.

There is an extremely fine line when it comes to historical accuracy. Go too accurate, and the game gets too complex due to too many options. Go too robust or simple, and the game gets too frustrating due to too few options.

Let me give an example which I think may just hit that line.

Imagine you are Germany, in WWII. You simply get up and say, I'm going to take over France. You go in, take over half of France, and turn the second half into a puppet-state, which, in Civ-terms, gives you the rest of France as well. However, the French citizens don't want you there. They riot and resist and do everything in their power to keep you out. But you put down all but the most headstrong partisans through use of obscene amount of soldiers. Although the French don't want you there, they have to put up with you. You have fun - you led a successful invasion.

But now, imagine you are Britain. Your ally, France, has been taken over by the Germans. You eventually mount an invasion, along with your other ally, the Americans, and take France back from Germany. What happens to France next? In some sense, they get their country back. France is reinstated as a Civilization, and Britain and France enter a sort of "Locked Alliance" for a period of turns. In this Alliance, Britain actually extends a large portion of power into France. Their treasuries are combined - all income from both Britain and France go into one account, essentially doubling science for both. They both also get to share their vision with each other. Finally, Britain gets to exert an amount of control over what is built in France, although France does not share the same control over Britain. The only things France gets to keep completely separate is their military units, and their name. Eventually, after a good amount of turns, this locked alliance ends, and the two countries technically part ways, but probably stay allies for a long time. Guess what? You have fun. You saved an ally, destroyed an enemy, and reaped large benefits for it.

What does this do? It keeps it simple, but adds fun by allowing the player control over the details that are meant to make things harder.

Three big things are here:

1. Puppet states. Simple. Others have suggested this.
2. Revolting territories. Simple. Others have suggested this.
3. Saving territories. If someone else has conquered a territory, if you take that territory from them and reinstate it's government, you will be rewarded two-fold. 1. You will weaken your enemy. 2. You will enter a locked alliance with the new nation. Also, if your culture is good enough, that territory may even ask to be entered into your official empire! (Although it would still keep it's own nationality and could differ in it's opinion of your actions from your homeland.)

Always let the players have a limited ability to control these restricting factores, and always have an alternative available, and always keep it as simple as possible. Otherwise, it won't be fun, just frustrating.
 
I agree Khift: many of the ideas for increasing historical realism will wind up decreasing fun (even though fun and realism aren't necessarily opposites).

For example, taking over the entire world has always been a fun part of civ, but its completely unrealistic. I'm glad they've added other ways to win, those are fun too, but they shouldn't make it impossible to conquer the world just for realism's sake.
 
Regarding "sandbox" style play versus playing to win:

Why not simply add a third end condition besides "Won" and "Lost".... call it "Retired". If you conquer to world, or build the spaceship, or reach whatever culture value is required for a cultural victory, then your score gets recorded as "Won" (just as in Civ 3). If you're eliminated, or someone else beats you to the spaceship, or someone else gets elected head of the UN, then your score gets recorded as "Lost". So for those who enjoy trying to beat the game, nothing's changed. But... if you make it to 2050 (or whatever year they decide to end at) and you haven't won yet, you just get "Retired" next to your score (you could presumably even decide to retire earlier, if you wanted). Thus, people who want "sandbox" style play, without focusing on winning, can just concentrate on enjoying building their empire and, as long as they aren't defeated, they won't be made to feel like a loser when the game ends, even if some other civs were more powerful.

Basically, I'm suggesting that they eliminate the concept of deciding who wins based on score if no other victory condition has been achieved. Keep all the other victory conditions, maybe even add some new ones, but get rid of the "highest average score" victory and you'd make sandbox-builder types happy without bothering the play-to-win types at all.
 
I entierly agree with poly-whatshisname.

This question goes right to the heart of what Civ is about and there could be two approaches. Either follow the historical/strategy modelling perspective or the 'board game' approach. It seems clear that civ 3 favoured the later over the former and this is why so many aspects of it are truly impossible, some of which are outlined above.

To my mind, however I think civ started out as an attempt to model history and the forces which shape history, using the technology of the time in a strategy game format. The problem is, is that the series continued in this format while avoiding tough questions about realism and how emerging technologies could be applied to stick to the original ideas.

It should be possible now to make a civ game that does model historical forces more realistically and effectively. And it could be fun. Why not. Civ 3 is a souped up Risk. In fact its a souped-up civ 1.


'They' need t take a long hard look at civ4. Actually I've got loadsa ideas. I'm thinking of forming a civ pressure group.
 
Civ started as souped up Risk and that's what I want it to remain.
 
Ah, but if Civ moves too far from its roots, it will alienate the fans that support the franchise. Success is its own punishment. Firaxis has to be somewhat conservative with respect to the Civ franchise or they can lose it.
 
Aha but you're missing the point. What the poly-man and I are saying is to approach the game from a different perspective.

I loved civ2 but civ3 wasent the game I should or could have been Anyway what will happen to civ4? More of the same? 'They' must be asking some tough questions about it...
 
judgement said:
For example, taking over the entire world has always been a fun part of civ, but its completely unrealistic. I'm glad they've added other ways to win, those are fun too, but they shouldn't make it impossible to conquer the world just for realism's sake.

I don't think anyone's saying that a domination victory shouldn't be allowed. But to make the game more interesting, it ought to change. I can't believe people love micromanaging troops, and having to eliminate that last straggling outpost as if somehow that civilization still has hope of being ANYTHING.
 
warpstorm said:
Civ started as souped up Risk and that's what I want it to remain.

You want that? Fine just keep playing Civ I, II and III and leave us to innovate on Civilization IV and that way everybody is happy.
 
I want more than before, I just like the fundamental Civ Risk-like gameplay and don't want that to change. I imagine a lot of Civ4 will be influenced by my desires. :mischief:

Everyone is happy, by radically different gameplay? Well, everyone except for the money people at Atari (who, incidentally, have final say) who are asking "Should we force Civ4 to be similar to the rest of the series and guarantee a few million profit, or should we take a risk and go on a tangent that might cause us to spend a few million dollars that we won't recoup?"
 
warpstorm said:
I want more than before, I just like the fundamental Civ Risk-like gameplay and don't want that to change. I imagine a lot of Civ4 will be influenced by my desires. :mischief:

Everyone is happy, by radically different gameplay? Well, everyone except for the money people at Atari (who, incidentally, have final say) who are asking "Should we force Civ4 to be similar to the rest of the series and guarantee a few million profit, or should we take a risk and go on a tangent that might cause us to spend a few million dollars that we won't recoup?"

Who said we want to make it different from the Civ series? We are just voicing our opinions but you are all nazi-communist like no you can't do that that sucks and I don't like it.
 
Who said it? You did. You flamed me for wanting Civ4 to remain similar to the previous ones. To me this implies that you want it to be different.

You are right, I do voice my opinions (both positive and negative - you just happened to get on the negative side). This is why my ideas got in Civ3.

BTW, the word you are looking for is Capitalist. Many of my arguments are based on the economic realities of the game industry.
 
warpstorm said:
You are right, I do voice my opinions (both positive and negative - you just happened to get on the negative side). This is why my ideas got in Civ3.

That is awesome, what ideas did you suggest?
 
When can we stop seeing such suggestions over and over again? I don't want to play a game that my settlers get killed the next turn "because they (realistically) got killed"!

Did the same group of people talk Firaxis to implementing "disease"?
 
Well, I suggested the current scenario search path system. I suggested that they include my graphics with PTW. And many, many others (high post count on this forum - and others that Firaxis reads).

I think changing the Conquistador to a pillager from yet a another knight replacement was my fault (okay, not every idea is wonderful).

Firaxis does listen to ideas.
 
I know what this topic title says.

But I think most people disagree with it, and have taken this in a new direction.

So the gross misinterpretations of each idea are making discussions counter productive.
 
Back
Top Bottom