Indians Only Using Mech Infanty (No Tanks!)

[Hurin]

Hey all,

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this behavior?

Both the Persians and the Indians have huge empires in my current game.

Oddly, according to my spies, neither of them are building tanks despite having the resources and technology to do so (India even could build Modern Armor were it so inclined).

India has 293 Mechanized Infantry and 20 cavalry (and 1 War Elephant). . . but not one tank.

When India attacked, it used the Mech Inf just as they would tanks.

Is this a preference for that civ or is my game bugged?

Thanks!

Hurin

 

[Evincar]

Yes Hurin, it's not only you!!!

I think it's because patch 1.21 Mech Inf has now both flags "attack" and "defense", so the AI uses it as Modern Armors...It sucks. I'll try disabling the "attack" flag for MI...or maybe giving Modern Armor both, I-d like to hear the opinion of Civ3-wisemen.

 

[Tweedledum]

Yep. It happened to me as well

Interestingly enough, it was the Indians in my game too. The Romans were in a similar position, but built Tanks (they had the resources for MI)...

Odd

 

[skaternate]

If you bother searching through the editor look at the civilizations screen under the rules. Their you will find a set of switches that tells each civ what to build often, some sea units, some offensive land, some defensive land. This is the best defensive land unit so any civ with that flag on will build tons of them. Also I have found the AI likes to use defensive units for the offensive, like attaking with rifleman and infantry. I think this is because the expect you to attack him and then they would have the better chance of victory, just my thoughts on the matter at least.

 

[RX2000]

Same thing happened to me last game. Huge map, 7 civs, regent level. The Romans, Indians, and Greeks all had the resources to build modern armor, and the tech, yet they didnt. They all had 250+ mech infantry tho. The Zulus did build some regular tanks however, but I think they were all built prior to them discovering the tech for mech infantry (cant remember what it is atm, computers?).

 

[Hurin]

Just an update. In the game I'm playing, the Indians seem to have built a few sporadic Modern Armors. Just a few, but it's nice to know that the AI isn't broken.

Quick aside: I'm incredibly frustrated at watching my Modern Armor getting smashed up my Mech Inf. Then, I decide to follow the Indian's lead and use Mech Inf as offensive untit instead. . . and I cut through them like butter. Hopefully it's just strange luck.

H

 

[LaRo]

I would change the title of the thread to: Indians Only Using Mech Infanty (No Thanks, it sucks!)

 

[eighty]

Playing on monarch level i had the french with over 100 mech inf in one square but no modern armor or tanks. after warring with them for several years, they did start building modern armor and using them for attacks. it could be that the AI is set up to build defensive units while at peace so they naturally have tons of them when u start the war and then gradually build the offensive units. if u play like i do and hurt their production capacity, it could take them time to build offense

 

[TheDS]

Riflemen, Infantry, and Mech Infantry all have the "Offensive Unit" AI flag checked. I think Musketmen do too.

In addition, tanks cost more to build, and are not all that much more powerful. I don't have the numbers on hand, but a bunch of MI are probably as powerful as an equal cost of MA.

This is my theory. It may not be the best one, but it's mine.

 

[Hurin]

Well, I just camped out with 10 Mech Infantry on their only oil. So they won't be building *either* for a while.

H

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by TheDS
Riflemen, Infantry, and Mech Infantry all have the "Offensive Unit" AI flag checked. I think Musketmen do too.

In addition, tanks cost more to build, and are not all that much more powerful. I don't have the numbers on hand, but a bunch of MI are probably as powerful as an equal cost of MA.

This is my theory. It may not be the best one, but it's mine.

Not musketmen, only musketeers (attack 2 is really poor). To my desmay, I've also found out that Impis have the attack flag!!

And on the other bit, check out numbers. MA is faaaaaaaaaar more powerful than MI, and the extra cost will many times make no difference (it will still be 1 or 2 turns in core cities)

 

[Hurin]

I agree, by the numbers, Modern Armor (MA) is much more powerful than Mechanized Infantry (MI).

Just a quick complaint though. . . I seem to lose *way* too many MA to defending MIs. Of course, the MI has a stronger D than A value. . . but still. . . it's so depressing.

H

 

[bobgote]

Tanks (16.8.2)
Mech Inf. (12.18.2)

This is why. The Mech Inf Is well worth it and can be used as an attack unit well, it responds better to a counter attack.

And btw, the Impi is offensive because a)It's a UU and can trigger a golden age. and b) it's 2 move points make it an effective raider and can retreat from attacking spearmen etc. So it's reasonable when you think about it.

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Hurin
I agree, by the numbers, Modern Armor (MA) is much more powerful than Mechanized Infantry (MI).

Just a quick complaint though. . . I seem to lose *way* too many MA to defending MIs. Of course, the MI has a stronger D than A value. . . but still. . . it's so depressing.

H

Actually that's habitual. Remember that defense bonus can make a defending unit pretty invincible.

For example, a MI fortified in a Metropolis gets +100%(metro) +25% (fortify) +10% (Terrain, but can be higher if the city is on a hill). Thus, it's real defense is over 42, so it's gonna take you zounds of MA to beat it! (Forget about taking the city it you only have tanks)

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Evincar

(Forget about taking the city it you only have tanks)

Unless you use artillery

 

[TheDS]

Ah, good, some of you are seeing why I claimed MI was about as powerful as MA....

But in case you missed it, let's do a thought experiment. Team 1 will have 11 MA and team 2 will have 12 MI. This is an equal cost.

We'll have the MI dig in and sit in a size 10 city, a reasonably common occurance. Along come the tanks. They have an attack of 24 vs the defense of 30.3 (18 +50% for city +25% for fortified *10% for open terrain). The tanks will lose 55% of the time, plus there are not as many. So a few are going to be held in reserve.

The MI attacking the MA is going to be 12 vs 21.6 (16 +25% for fortied +10% for open terrain), or a loss of about 65%. Worse odds, yes, but there are going to be about half as many MA as MI, bringing the odds slightly in the MI's favor. Many of the MA won't have the chance to fortify, and will be weakened from attacking.

This is a reasonable situation to see, and it illustrates the need for COMBINED ARMS. If either side had some artillery, or if both sides had both types of units, they would be better balanced.

But where my eariler claim really falls on its face was that MI costs MORE THAN a regular Tank, but it is DEFINITELY more powerful. Tank: 16-8-2. MI: 12-18-2. The MI has 50% more attacking power vs the Tank's defending power, wheras the Tank's attacking power is only slightly above the MI's defending power. MI can also master Infantry, especially if they attack the MI. You still don't want to attack MI with MI though.

The other problem was that when I thought of costs, I was remembering my mods, where I bumped up some of the costs. Tanks are a few million dollars. A whole army of spearmen couldn't stop a company of them from doing whatever it wanted, but would cost less.

Which brings me to another point. Anyone notice how MA (and tanks and MI to a lesser extent) are so fast that your support units can't keep up? You can either over-extend yourself smashing enemy cities with tank-rushes and risk the survivors coming out and wiping out your undefended assault arm, or you can delay your attack a few turns to let the artillery and infantry get into position, and risk having a ton of extra defenders and a bogged down attack. I made this effect even worse when I bumped up the speeds of all mechanized units by 1, but it really gives the Blitzkrieg feel to the game; the German Armor constantly had to be slowed down so the Infantry could catch up and allow for proper combined arms operations.