indirect fire & range promotions

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I almost never pick indirect range. It's just much easier to find a hill. Extra protection, no obscured vision. There are some situations where indirect range makes sense: forested flat lands, for example. Then I give this promotion to 1 or 2 units.
It's the same with amphibious. I don't usually want amphibious promotions for my melee, but in some maps, it's useful to have 1 or 2 units able to cross those rivers.

AI sometimes surprise me by taking proper promotions for the situation.
 
I almost never pick indirect range. It's just much easier to find a hill. Extra protection, no obscured vision. There are some situations where indirect range makes sense: forested flat lands, for example. Then I give this promotion to 1 or 2 units.
It's the same with amphibious. I don't usually want amphibious promotions for my melee, but in some maps, it's useful to have 1 or 2 units able to cross those rivers.

AI sometimes surprise me by taking proper promotions for the situation.

I agree this scenario you describe is often ideal; but now we're narrowing this into a somewhat specific set of conditions that are not truly always available. Regardless, in your scenario, I'm imagining we're talking about defending a choke point or other strategic location.. ignoring w/e melees might be necessary, I'd maybe want a second archer w/ similar promos to relieve/flank the hill defender, and after that I'd want up to 3 range/indirects, for 3/5 of my ranged units holding this area taking that combo. This might be too congested, especially if no roads, so say 2/4 archers as range indirect.. this'll work way better than having 4/4 logistics path range units trying to hold this point, in this engineered scenario. Add in the variety of terrain that you often have in front of our imagined hill, and the range indirect becomes more useful.. even better than the single hill, if you can find a series of hills now to slow AI units especially horses, your indirect range will hit as often as your 2-shot logistics archer, who you'll often be shuffling around.... This unit mix will also transition to hit cities better on counter attack after grinding down the spam. Granted this is a bit of a castle defense strategy, and exploitable by other human attackers, I find myself setting up this way often enough when playing tall, with good success.

Gazebo's AI can successfully assault the chokepoint sometimes, at least to push the front line back a tile or two... I've never been pushed back by AI once I have even one range/indirect in place, though, all other things being equal (yes sure bombers etc but I get those too) and usually I can grind xp on range/indirect every turn, provided I have at least 2 neighbours to alternate for war weariness, whereas my other archers can't always hit from shorter, uncovered range w/o serious risk. I have no problem with the range/indirect effect itself necessarily (although it is strange on some level to think of these archers firing over say, the alps, to hit targets as far away as the most elite modern battleships.. but I realize the realism issue is another sore point on these boards lol.. I try to imagine that they scale the mountain just enough, fire, and return to their assigned position in the interim between turns to rationalize things here); but I don't like that the AI never uses this feature, even ineffectively, against me. In practice this setup seems to only be truly useable by human, whereas somehow or other most of the other strong combos show up on AI here and there.

Anyway I can appreciate that a specific "fix" to this promo combo might not be to the community's taste, and the feedback on other's playstyles in this regard has been helpful as I tweak my mod mod for the next house game here.

G, if you're reading, I wonder if you've ever considered slower xp on marathon, and/or asymmetrical xp rates for human/AI on deity??? would these even be possible? best ideas from this thread so far I think...
 
Just how in the hell the "issue" will be fixed by slowing down xp ? Sure it will make marathon games less of an auto win, but what you have been challenged by not noly me but also otehrs is the fact that the range promotion alone can acomplish everything the range + indirect fire op op super combo about 50% of the time, so unless you play on a hand made map script taht literally has 0 flat lands anywhere and the whole world is hillds and forests, how is your problem not whit the range promotion instead of indirect fire? Plenty of people think taht 3 range archer units is op expecialy vs the ai, they are not absolutely wrong, but ranged pormotion is balanced against double shoot promotion, and archer units also have a counter in the cover pormotion, a promotion that while the ai may not be as alware as a human on where to spam it on every unit, it certanly can use it because its a passive promotion.

The ai right now is not using range because it goes logistics 9 times out of 10 and its not smart or good to take these logistics archers to level 20 where they can have both logitics and range and indirect fire, thats a thing only humans can realistic do,the ai has 0 problems firing from 3 range and it has 0 problems unsing indirect fire, this is a point youre only bringing up to try and make your point look like a real problem, perhaps It would be better if every time the ai creates an archer it has a 50% change of it going down logistic or going down range but the fact is that the short term gain of logistic is better and taht what the ai goes for most of the time maybe you mod modded this mod so much youre not even playing the same game the rest of us are anymore, because your fantasy choke point never happened to me in hundreds of games.
 
Just how in the hell the "issue" will be fixed by slowing down xp ?
I think the rest of your post answers this question. Humans have a huge advantage over AI because we get a bunch of really highly promoted units. If XP was gained more slowly, this advantage would be smaller. IDK if this actually an issue or not, but slower XP gain would have a pretty clear impact

I stopped playing Epic entirely because it was way too easy to get uber high leveled units and slaughter the AI with them. And contrary to what so many people seem to think, range really isn't the promotion that drives this. It wasn't that long ago that accuracy->range was considered vastly inferior to barrage->logistics, and we had to nerf that path dramatically in order for it to be viable. I really don't care for archer units unless they have logistics because their damage output is really low
 
Dark, bro, I can appreciate you bumping my thread and all, but can you tone down the forum gestapo bs a little? Nothing being discussed here will ever effect you, unless you keep clicking this thread like you've been doing lol. We get it, you don't have any good ideas to contribute. Until you do, I understand that you enjoy flavors of cheese that I don't, no need to get angry.

Anyway the xp change would be interesting... I'm pretty sure it could be accomplished through a promotion... anyone know if a promotion can be applied to all ai units but not human? that is the only challenge I think...
 
I think the rest of your post answers this question. Humans have a huge advantage over AI because we get a bunch of really highly promoted units. If XP was gained more slowly, this advantage would be smaller. IDK if this actually an issue or not, but slower XP gain would have a pretty clear impact

I stopped playing Epic entirely because it was way too easy to get uber high leveled units and slaughter the AI with them. And contrary to what so many people seem to think, range really isn't the promotion that drives this. It wasn't that long ago that accuracy->range was considered vastly inferior to barrage->logistics, and we had to nerf that path dramatically in order for it to be viable. I really don't care for archer units unless they have logistics because their damage output is really low

Scaling XP requirements for units to level up is dead simple to add. No reason not to try it.

G
 
I think the rest of your post answers this question. Humans have a huge advantage over AI because we get a bunch of really highly promoted units. If XP was gained more slowly, this advantage would be smaller. IDK if this actually an issue or not, but slower XP gain would have a pretty clear impact

I stopped playing Epic entirely because it was way too easy to get uber high leveled units and slaughter the AI with them. And contrary to what so many people seem to think, range really isn't the promotion that drives this. It wasn't that long ago that accuracy->range was considered vastly inferior to barrage->logistics, and we had to nerf that path dramatically in order for it to be viable. I really don't care for archer units unless they have logistics because their damage output is really low
I 100% agree whit you, but the main "issue" here was supposed to be how op +range and indirect fire are, the fact that humans massacre ais on slower speed was something I pointed out, what I keep challenging tekamthi is how indirect fire + range is the problem, and he seem to have done a total 360 and is now pretending as if thas not what he said in the first place....
 
can a mod please rename my thread to "range & indirect & dark zero tears"; just so people know what they're getting into here
Because now just because someone has a different opinion he is now angry and in tears...way to go, like literaly no one agreed whit you man, at least i am trying to have a discussion whit you asd to why.
 
can a mod please rename my thread to "range & indirect & dark zero tears"; just so people know what they're getting into here

Stop, please.

Because now just because someone has a different opinion he is now angry and in tears...way to go, like literaly no one agreed whit you man, at least i am trying to have a discussion whit you asd to why.

Stop, please.

G
 
Dark, I started a thread, and questdog suggested a solution, which most here, including myself, seem to like. To summarize, most posting here want to try modified xp rates for possibly marathon or deity.

You've come in here trying to derail repeatedly, arguing mainly with yourself. I've never had a problem with other promos, but wanted to address a disparity I observed between human and AI. In your last post you lost control of your language a little. I expressed my amusement. end of story.
 
Dark, I started a thread, and questdog suggested a solution, which most here, including myself, seem to like. To summarize, most posting here want to try modified xp rates for possibly marathon or deity.

You've come in here trying to derail repeatedly, arguing mainly with yourself. I've never had a problem with other promos, but wanted to address a disparity I observed between human and AI. In your last post you lost control of your language a little. I expressed my amusement. end of story.
questdog suggested a solution...quoting my post...to a problem i brough up that you did not even mention before that, because the very frst post of this thread is about this super op combo of +range + indirect fire on archers that every single other poster of this thread said is weak...how did I derail this thread about an op range + indirect fire combo whit and argument that now you say is the very existence of this thread?
 
questdog suggested a solution...quoting my post...to a problem i brough up that you did not even mention before that, because the very frst post of this thread is about this super op combo of +range + indirect fire on archers that every single other poster of this thread said is weak...how did I derail this thread about an op range + indirect fire combo whit and argument that now you say is the very existence of this thread?

all the posts are still there if you need a play-by-play... try to stay on topic please
 
all the posts are still there if you need a play-by-play... try to stay on topic please
My question to you is...what is the topic? the thread name is indirect fire & range promotion, yet if I talk about those I am derailing the topic but wen i talked about marathon you called it "marathon tangent", my argument on the very firs post I gave on this topic was not an elitist bashing someone playing on marathon, it was me trying to explain why youre are experiencing the opness of 3 range indirect fire archers...it was not these promotions the root cas eof your trouble but the fact that marathon units xp dont scale so you ended up whit sereval super leveled units, which as i said break any game, does not matter if its archers,horses or melees every unit has a level where it becomes an op monster and said levels are almost impossible not to reach on maratho,since the game takes such a long time.
So since it looks like you no longer hold the view that indirect fire & range promotions is the root cause either, and gazeebo is already providing a solution, so I guess the problem is at least on the radar, is there anything else left to discuss?
 
The topic of this thread is whether or not other people have observed AI using a certain promo combo, and what might be done to close this or similar gaps. The topic is not whether we should listen to marathon players, or whether a ranged unit should pick logistics first (you should most of the time, we are all agreed), or why someone's feelings are hurt in a discussion about the merits of ideas.

As i've said many times, I only have a problem with the range/indirect issue, not other promo combos... reducing either human xp, or marathon xp all around, will mitigate the disparity i've observed, along with w/e else it does. Sure questdog answered your post, just like you answered mine. Thats how a forum works usually. Where you've helped me, I've thanked you. I'm not sure what you else you're hoping for here.
 
right, so I think we agree logistics is strong but works just fine: the AI accesses logistics w/o issue, as already noted.

Regardless of what choice is made w/ logistics, the instantaneous tactical effect of combining range/indirect seems stronger than any other combo (outside logistics), and in hands of human it seems to happen way more often than for the AI in the games I run. The moment where I get just 1 or 2 range/indirect archers deployed correctly usually tilts battles vs AI significantly, and I often get to 5 or 6 fairly early in most games I play (granted I play deity/marathon often, exaggerating this effect), whereas the AI usually gets 0 or 1, even late into the game. I'm curious whether this truly is just my playstyle rather than a general balance issue...

But you posted this, the anwser to the original question of , can the ai use this promotion combo is: yes it can, and why it looks like humans use this combo and ais dont is because ais pick the logistic path, and they dont manage their archers to the point where they can go all the way both promotion trees, but the archers that go range before logistic usually get indirect fire and can sue it well, as I stated above reducing human xp will do nothing to the "issue" at hand,nor will it mitigate the disparity, because this is an ai choice issue and not a human issue, a true fix for example would be to force the ai to go logistic 50% of the time and range the other 50%, but as I said, its not like the ai avoid range because it sucks at it and its a promotion made for human cheese, the ai can indeed use it, It just finds the logistic patch more apealing most of the time, at least for the archer line.
 
But you posted this, the anwser to the original question of , can the ai use this promotion combo is: yes it can

I never asked this question, check the OP if you don't believe me; you just started arguing on this point irrelevantly early on, despite everyone being in agreement on this answer -- but its never been the topic here.

I brought up marathon in #8, you then replied, slightly off topic in #9 on my cue, beating an old dead horse once again. Questdog brought us back.

I can read the posts from last page, just like you can; no need to recap what you "said" or "stated". You just missed the mark in most of your posts, and I'd appreciate if you tried to be a little more productive and topical in your replies, personally. The forum should foster discussion, not seek to stifle it.

xp reduction absolutely mitigates the indirect/range issue, you just haven't grasped what everyone else here has fully.

now pls excuse me while i get back to my "total 360" forum tricks
 
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Hey, guys!

I know you both feel hurted, but it leads to nowhere.
The real fact is that Tekamthi spotted something not going well in epic, and thought it was an overpowered promotion. We all told him he was mistaken about the promotion, and we blaimed XP not scaling.
Thanks to this misunderstanding, now Gazebo is going to fix XP scaling.

I think we should congratulate instead of fighting for who was right.
 
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