Industrial Age tech selection

[Genuis]

Here's my question:

In the Industrial Age, do you immediately research Nationalism to get Mutual Protection Pactsm, drafting and Riflemen, or do you just skip it and try to trade for it later, or research it yourself?

Personally I skip it, I just go for Replaceable Parts and the Infantry which gives me a big lead. If I can get Infantry and Artillery a few techs before the other civs, I can usually win a few wars in that time period. I can then demand Nationalism and the techs that follow it for a peace settlement. I don't think MPP's are worth it to delay my Infantry rush, but in some cases I would research it just to get drafting or research Communism faster.

 

[Rain]

I usually buy nationalism as soon as its discovered then focus on scientific method for the theory of evolution then on to electronics for the hoover.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Am I mistaken or doesn't the scientific civs get Nationalism for free? If the scientific civs get it for free, then don't bother, you can trade for it later. I go for steam power (railroads), industrialization (for factories), then sanitation (hospitals). This allows you to have several major productive cities to build Theory of evolution, Hoovers Dam, etc. After electronics, then replacable parts and then work my way to tanks.

 

[Rain]

You are right re the sci civs.

 

[LordAzreal]

The best way to kick off the Industrial age is to work towards Replaceable Parts (Steam Power, then Electricity are required for this). This way, I'll get railroads quickly, be able to irrigate anywhere and once I reach this goal, my workers will be much faster. Not only that, but I'll get Infantry, which will beat the enemy's efforts when they go straight to Nationalism, which only allows the rifleman. Also, if there's locations not yet settled which have rubber, you can see them and pick them off before the enemy does.

Once I've got Replaceable parts out of the road, I'll go for Industrialisation, as factories play a very important role, and if you don't build them, you'll end up being outproduced by your opponents. Afterwards, I'll set my goal to Motorised Transportation, as it pretty much takes you most of the way through the tech tree.

 

[Rain]

You guys msut be playing with few civs to get those kind of tech leads. In my observation with many civs ( i generally play 16 ) 2 techs is a huge tech lead. To imply u could get infnatry before the ai gets past riflemen when its a free tech to the sci civs is not going to happen as far as i can see in my experience ( i havent played belwo monarch so it may work there or it may work with fewer civs ).

 

[Genuis]

You guys msut be playing with few civs to get those kind of tech leads. In my observation with many civs ( i generally play 16 ) 2 techs is a huge tech lead. To imply u could get infnatry before the ai gets past riflemen when its a free tech to the sci civs is not going to happen as far as i can see in my experience ( i havent played belwo monarch so it may work there or it may work with fewer civs ).

In my current game, Regent level, 16 civs on a huge island map, I have at least a 3-tech lead over the civs on the continent next to mine - the biggest continent. On another pair of continents, the civs there have been killing each other off and haven't made contact with the other islands. I have a 5 or 6 tech lead over them. I also just finished killing off Rome, which was still in the Ancient Ages when I was going to the Industrial...

 

[LordAzreal]

Originally posted by Rain
You guys msut be playing with few civs to get those kind of tech leads. In my observation with many civs ( i generally play 16 ) 2 techs is a huge tech lead. To imply u could get infnatry before the ai gets past riflemen when its a free tech to the sci civs is not going to happen as far as i can see in my experience ( i havent played belwo monarch so it may work there or it may work with fewer civs ).

The thing is though, since the tech tree branches out quite a bit, the AI might not always go straight to Replaceable parts. Usually, they go along towards Communism (in my experience) and from there they go some direction away from Replaceable Parts.

Having infantry before everyone else isn't my only motive to get straight to Replaceable parts anyway. The worker speed up is the main reason (those railroads have to be built sometime this milennium).

Maybe the map size does affect it. Since I can't stand the two minute wait between turns, and the micromanagement of 50+ cities, I only play on standard maps. This, however affects the number of starting civs, and proximity to each other (I always seem to have a VERY close neighbour which I need to annihilate immediately to be able to freely expand). Since there is a smaller limit, there are less AI civs to engage in tech-sharing.

 

[Rain]

Well as i say i havent tried regent or below. Perhaps my play style is a bit different as well which might lead to the different out come. On Monarch i found i would make contact with other civs at a rate on parity with the ai. On emperor the ai would generally be way ahead. For example current HOF try game im playing. Its a Pangaea map and i am dead center of the continent. So logic would imply i would make contact with more civs than the ai. But by the time i had contacted about 3 the ai suddenly had contact with double that and in about two turns basically had contact with everyone. Since the ai tech swaps like crazy its impossible to stay ahead researching. With theory of evolution you can count on jumping two ahead of the ai usually, but unless theres a lot of war going on at that tiem the ai starts cranking out research at 4 - 5 turn rate. Im not at that point in this game yet. Its 950 ad and we are 7 turns into industrial age. however the last game which i just submitted for hof ( 5574 score) i had built up a giant cash basket which i used to try to outtech the ai once i got the theory. Even banging out tech at 4 turn rate ( golden age and huge cash investment to achieve it). I still couldnt extend that lead much. Admittedly i was able to get tanks and mechs ahead of the ai but the lead was limited and of course once i ran out of cash and the GA the ai caught up pretty quickly. Perhaps it would be more effective with a science civ. I generally like the french tho.

 

[Rain]

Oh one other thought. The more civs the more branching the ai appears to do so they dont all climb the tree the same it seems. I did notice this tendency mentioned above on monarch but it seems not to be as evident in emperor.

 

[Ouchgeddon]

With 8 civs (one of them me), most of them will go for the combat techs...Gunpowder, Steel and so on. But often India and less often England will go the "enlightenment path" and research Theology and so forth. This is bothersome cos then I have to race them for Sistine Chapel and Bach's Cathedral, while the others are ripping into each other with Longbowmen and Knights.

That should say it all: I go for Happiness and Science techs so I can have a contented, knowledgable and rich nation. If I'm not Scientific, then I ignore Nationalism. MPP is not all that useful, since bribery for instant allies works much better. Communism and Espionage are both useful much later, during war or Space Race. And quite frankly, how could you let those wasteful, backwards civs get away with YOUR Hoover Dam...

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Rain
You guys msut be playing with few civs to get those kind of tech leads. In my observation with many civs ( i generally play 16 ) 2 techs is a huge tech lead. To imply u could get infnatry before the ai gets past riflemen when its a free tech to the sci civs is not going to happen as far as i can see in my experience ( i havent played belwo monarch so it may work there or it may work with fewer civs ).

You're right. It all depends on the position, and there are usually more than one available strategy. For instance, if you are ahead, you may go for infantry/artillery and start an early war; but if you are behind, you may go for infantry/artillery for defense.

If I am in a strong position, I will usually go for factories and hospitals, in order to outproduce my rivals in the industrial age. The weakness of this strategy, or rather the counter to this strategy, is for the AI to invade during my factory production. Rifle and cannon can usually parry these invasions quite effectively (at least until the AI learns to use its artillery!).

 

[Rain]

I must confess to making a bit of error when i posted my original reply. I confused replacebale parts with the tanks. Parts is much earlier obviously. But just to give another example from my current emp game. The ai went to communism as always then steam then medicine, sanitation, corpartion, electricty, sci method. I bought sci method and built theory same turn. Got parts and atomic and now am researching my first tech since bronze working > electronics. The ai got espionage the the first turn after i built theory. I presume its on parts/steel now. There are ten of 16 civs ( eng, iro, aztec, england, china, babylon are all toast). I still havent gone to war with anyone. Im 4th in score with 2421 (egypt) behind germans 2961, japan 2719, india 2495, but outscoring, powering culturing them all per turn at this point so its jsut a matter of reeling them in. The year is 1325. I have timed electronics to hit on same turn as a hoover build. But i still cant seem to outtech the ai. Im encurring a 402 per turn loss to get electronics which i cant sustain ( treasury is 6300 ~ 6 turns to electronics). If Hoover gives me a GA this will change i think. If theres a trick to outteching the ai its escaping me at this point but i'll see how it progressess. If it follows previous games tho i'll lose the tech lead and be back to stealing/buying in mod era.
( some other comparative stats - no. 1 in pop gnp mfg family size income and productivity ~ weak to the big civs military avg to rest but im cranking out infantry at 1 every 2 turns in my big cities now so this will change.)

 

[napoleon526]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Am I mistaken or doesn't the scientific civs get Nationalism for free...

Is it always nationalism? I thought that scientific civs just get a random tech at the beginning of every age.

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

if u are a non-scientific civ u cannot outtech the AI at emp level unless u have temples, libraries, univs, cathedrals and such...even then, they will branch out to diff paths and swap with each other narrowing the tech lead.
in the game i submitted for HOF i wrested the tech lead in the middlge ages and kept it up cos i build newton's univ, theory of evolution, research labs in every core city ( very important if u are looking for space win) and SETI....
i kept the world at war for pretty much the length of the game. wars usually slow down the ai tech rate.

if u are the first to tanks, do not trade them at all....for purposes of keeping the cash flowing, u can research flight in about 5 turns and trade it away. meanwhile, every city should be building tanks.

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

oh...
i forgot to mention...ur first tech of the mordern era should be computers (research labs, upgrade to mech inf and SETI)....for a sci civ u get rocketry for free and can trade it away....
do not trade computers for at least 6 turns...the ai never seems to branch towards computers...probably just because the few that
are close to u by then work towards space flight.

 

[Rain]

Pretty much always nationalism as far as i can see.

Re last poster: its really not necessary to research those techs for space win you can steal them easier than researching them even if you cant buy em. The ai always seems to leave laser til last so sometiems i research that one but the rest i acquire other ways.

 

[Anglophile]

First of all, what version is everyone playing. When I played 1.16, my preference was pretty much Bamspeedy's approach. I always had a good Tech lead and could afford to get the infrastructure enhancing advances first, then get the military ones when I had the industrial and transportation capacities to take full advantage of them. I'm playing 1.17 on Emperor for the 2nd time and although I'm way ahead on points as we near the end of the second age, I am merely keeping up with the AI on Research by buying from them, despite having a huge tech lead at the end of the first age (admittedly due solely to very aggressive use of scouts and goody huts). I am not sure how I will proceed at this point, probably with my normal approach. However, for anyone else playing 1.17 at high levels, any advice on how to maintain a tech lead would be greatly appreciated. Incidentally, I play very big maps so the tech cost multiplier is very high.