Institutions Instead of Individual Improvements

[Khan Quest]

Disclaimer: Unfortunately I rarely have time to read posts and sometimes go days or weeks without reading posts. That said, I apologize if someone has suggested this idea already. If you have please post a thread so I (and others) can read it.

Disclaimer 2: I know this idea oozes with MM, but I still think it is a good one. Perhaps you could suggest ways to implement the idea and reduce the MM.

We all know that a city improvement represents an institution. E.g., when you build a Library, it is not a single building with some books in it, it represents a method of scholars gathering, storing and sharing information. This single building is a convenient way for the game to represent the improvement, but I would like to see a more gradual transition than the abrupt – OK, a library is built, you suddenly get 3 culture and 50% science bonus.

Institutions

Libraries, Universities and Research Labs, for example, would become the institution Education. Improvements would be built in steps, say 4 or 5 steps (levels) to achieve the equivalence of the civ3 benefit. Here is an example for education.

See edu.bmp

The improvement benefit should be linear (in most cases), but the cost should be exponential. Achieving higher levels would get very expensive – until a new tech is discovered, resetting the curve and cost. One pricing scheme I came up with looks pretty good, here’s the formula:

(Civ3_Cost / 40 ) * [10 + (2 ^ (Level -1)) * ((Level -1) ^ 0.0000001)]

For a Civ3 cost of 40 shields (such as a barracks):

See cost.bmp

When a new tech is discovered that allows new development in the same institution, the lesser cost of the two (or more) improvements would be used.

The act of building the institution would have immediate affect. If at least one shield is allocated to building an institution, the city will receive half the benefit of the next level. Example, if Education were at level 2, building toward level 3 would result in a science bonus of 35% and culture of 1.5. Transference of shields would have to go back to the loss of half (rounding up) to prevent exploits.

Sliders would be used to allocate your shield spending. Each buildable institution would have its own slider and shield box. There would be additional sliders for military units, wonders, ss components, etc.

A wonder that provides buildings, like Sun Tzu, would put the effective level of the institution four levels higher.

Power Plants
Since there are four types of power plants, any combination of these may be built. There ought to be a way to upgrade to cleaner power plants.

Military
More military institution technologies would be needed. Maybe at Chivalry (Tournaments or something) and again at Military Tradition (War games?).

There could be some level of synergy between military improvements. E.g., you have a level 2 barracks, so a level 1harbor and airport are 10% cheaper.

Commerce/Finance
After, say 4 level of Commerce (Marketplace) have been replaced, it could split into two institutions: Commerce and Finance.

Finance would be Banks, Stock Exchanges and maybe a new one, Venture Capital.

Commerce would require new techs. How to describe this? There was a time when, if you wanted something new, you’d have to order it made. You would go to the potter and order a mug. Craftsmen didn’t have stock, everything was made as needed, until some time in the middle ages. Now, the potter can say “Let me interest you in this fine, matching set of dining ware…” Maybe warehousing or guilds or something. Later techs might be Advertising/Marketing (printing press) then Retail.

MM
(I know at least part of this has been suggested before)
To alleviate some of the MM, features like copy city <cityname> and build lists like Specialization-Military improvements, Specialization-Financial improvements and custom lists should be implemented.

One more point, though more of a corruption model change idea.
Tax for support of a city’s institutions should come from within city. If national tax money is to be used, it should require more than the city itself would pay, and at some point make citizens in other cities less happy.

Here are a few more institutions, see Inst.bmp

 

[rhialto]

Nah. It's much more satisfying to build a unversity than a education level 4.

 

[Spatula]

Something I hate about Civ 3 is that you have to build improvements one by one. You should be allowed to allocate a certain number of your shields to certain projects, not have to build them seperately. By the Civ3 logic Milton Keynes would today have one library and be in the process of building a temple. Milton Keynes is nowhere near behind the rest of the country as it would be in a Civ 3 model.

 

[rhialto]

Problem with that, spatula, is that one fully finished building in civ is far more effective than 2 half-finished buildings. It is exactly teh same issue that teh advocates of simultaneous research havent faced up to.

 

[mitsho]

@Rhialto I think education level 4 wouldn't be named education level 4, but (f.e.) local university.

Personally I like this idea, but I think it's too complex for civ, is it?

mfg mitsho

 

[Spatula]

Problem with that, spatula, is that one fully finished building in civ is far more effective than 2 half-finished buildings. It is exactly teh same issue that teh advocates of simultaneous research havent faced up to.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Athens is producing 15 shields per turn (after waste and stuff), and can either build Temple or Library. Temple costs 30 shields and Library 40 (I don't know the true values so I picked these two). I allocate 5 shields to Temple and 10 to Library. 4 turns later, I had a Library with all its functions. 2 turns after that, I would have a Temple, but instead I switch 5 freed shields to Temple (which has 20 of its shields built), making its allocation 10 and thus finishing it in the next turn. The other 5 shields I put into a 5-shield worker. In this case it has taken the same amount of turns as it would have done if you built one after the other - but I have a worker that I wouldn't have had in the current style within the same timespan (I'd have to wait another turn).

Obviously I have slightly engineered the numbers so that in the end I have no wasted shields - this is probably unlikely in many situations, but the wasting of shields already happens in Civ3.

Consider how this would affect wonders. When I am trying for 20k victory I sometimes have to switch straight to another wonder else another civ will reap those much-needed culture points. But I will have no Cathedral or Colosseum this way. Even if I allocated just a few shields it could make the difference between winning and losing, as I would have the extra culture from a much earlier part of the game.

 

[rhialto]

That issue could just as easily be resolved by saying that any 'wasted' shields are automatically assigned to the next item in the city's build queue. It would achieve exactly the same effect with less MM.

 

[eromrab]

i like the idea of multitasking cities... i understand that it'll slow down the production of building just one... but at the same time... if i'm building a wonder... sometimes i'll want to build other things at the same time cause they take soooo long... so i would like to be able to set the majority of my production to a wonder, and then set some aside to build units/workers/improvements... yeah it'll take longer, but to me it'd be worth it.

i also don't like the idea of wasted shields... i'd like to see it apply unused shields to the next build thing... but i dont' think it should apply it right away... that way you would always be able to "rush" things for cheaper... but maybe apply after the first turn building it... i dunno

 

[Albow]

Why does it have to slow down?!?! Why not speed Civ up, so that you can build two things at once, and at the same rate as just one? (so if you have 10 shields, 2 projects don't mean 5 and 5, it means 10 and 10!)

My idea would be that a city can only build one thing at a time, but when you build barracks, you can now build something in the city, and a unit in the barracks (2 units if you want, or one unit and one building).

The next leap is when you build a factory, which allows another construction point, and yet again for manufaturing plant. So, in ancient times most cities will be one building at a time, then by insustrial, 2, then modern 3 ... this means newer cities build up infastructure very quickly later in the game.

People will think this is overpowered - but remember, everyone is doing it ... it also means the loss of a city will be far worse, but that building new ones will be easier. End effect, civ is faster, more and bigger armies, more action and each turn more stuff is happening!

 

[frekk]

End effect, civ is faster, more and bigger armies, more action and each turn more stuff is happening!

That means the game is slower. That's what happens in the modern era with an empire that is too big, eventually it gets to be too repetitive and too long to wait for techs and so on, because the turns are so long.

I don't like the idea of multiple improvements at once, nor of having twice as much work to do with each city. Although, I do like the idea of building multiple military units if you have enough production (eg, say a unit takes 200 shields and you've got 400, I think you should get 2 units. It would help small civs with high populations so that territory doesn't always equate to victory but population and other things play a bigger role). But I'd like just one production choice to have to make for each city.