Intrigue - Human Advantage for harder difficulties.

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I came to realise people who are afraid of getting owned on higher difficulties will now finally be able to break their fear and enter a higher difficulty (That being Warlord and Prince) since the intrigue will tell you if somebody is planning an attack, and hopefully if you have friends, they're gonna warn you.

So no more sneak attacks that you are completely unprepared for and getting your bottom whooped.

Can't wait. I also love that the game now encourages you to go up in difficulty because those who play on easier will rarely see their enemies reach Industrial Eras, so I know that Warlord is the closest thing for the AI to reach modern eras since I remember Harald nearly finished the Spaceship race.

 

[theadder]

Is the game difficult enough that some people are playing it on Chieftain and Settler difficulties? I had assumed that this was not true.

I am interested in which elements of the game hold back turning up the difficulty setting? From your post it seems that it is the military aspect; does that sound realistic?

 

[FeiLing]

Some people would play alone on a map without any foes if they could, I'm sure of that. They might just see it as a SimCity type game (where nothing can go wrong either).

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Espionage... Intrigue... there's no guarantee for getting this kind of information imho. And most certainly you can only get this from one civ, as You'll only have 1 spy at a time.
And the answer to the question if an enemy on a higher difficulty will attack is: Yes, he will. I don't need spies for that Is a civ friendly? He still will attack you^^ Maybe it helps you to a bit to find out when exactly, but it's pretty obvious most of the time already.

...and hopefully if you have friends, they're gonna warn you.

If I was going to attack you, I wouldn't tell you. Even if we were friends
(Wouldn't tell my other friends either unless I wanted them to take part...)

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Some people would play alone on a map without any foes if they could, I'm sure of that. They might just see it as a SimCity type game (where nothing can go wrong either).

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Espionage... Intrigue... there's no guarantee for getting this kind of information imho. And most certainly you can only get this from one civ, as You'll only have 1 spy at a time.
And the answer to the question if an enemy on a higher difficulty will attack is: Yes, he will. I don't need spies for that Is a civ friendly? He still will attack you^^ Maybe it helps you to a bit to find out when exactly, but it's pretty obvious most of the time already.


If I was going to attack you, I wouldn't tell you. Even if we were friends
(Wouldn't tell my other friends either unless I wanted them to take part...)

But that is completely unrealistic, i don't see Hitler attacking Musselini (oh god! I can't remember his name) because he covets his land. They both were allies. There is no proper alliances. I'm sure somebody like Gandhi and Kamehameha are gonna warn me. THat's my point.

And yes, I still play on Chieftain, because I wanna enjoy the game without rage-quitting because the AI is going to own me... God and Kings encoruages realistic alliances (Freedom Nations + Same religion + DoFs = Alliance)

But intrigue also permits you to PREPARE, I never spend additional hammers on units if I'm not gonna use them for attacking, but if Dido warns me that Alexander is gonna backstab me then I can at least prepare in advance, you don't have that now.

And I'm sure it's been stated that the AI is gonna be less "Hostile hostile, and hostile" but more flexiable.

 

[smallfish]

But that is completely unrealistic, i don't see Hitler attacking Musselini (oh god! I can't remember his name) because he covets his land. They both were allies. There is no proper alliances. I'm sure somebody like Gandhi and Kamehameha are gonna warn me. THat's my point.

Hitler didn't covet the southern European "living spaces" didn't he? Mussolini was an opportunistic guy anyway, jumped into the war on Hitler's side only when France was falling.

A better example would be Hitler and Stalin. People seem to forget that both of them were on extremely friendly relations after Poland (Non-Aggression Pact), but Hitler was subtle enough to hide his "covet Russian lands" until Barbarossa happened.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Hitler didn't covet the southern European "living spaces" didn't he? Mussolini was an opportunistic guy anyway, jumped into the war on Hitler's side only when France was falling.

A better example would be Hitler and Stalin. People seem to forget that both of them were on extremely friendly relations after Poland (Non-Aggression Pact), but Hitler was subtle enough to hide his "covet Russian lands" until Barbarossa happened.

That's a backstab, but I don't expect Kamehameha or Gandhi to backstab me. and I'm sure plenty of other civs that are peaceful.

 

[FeiLing]

Kamehameha is the greatest backstabber of them all! (well ok, 3rd or 4th, right behind Alex and Oda and maybe Caesar).

I don't see where "being friends and then backstab out of the blue" is more unrealistic than actually being able to say "I know this other guy is going to attack you in 10 turns? He told me everything about it for some unknown reason. He said he'll take city x of yours first. I just wanted to warn you. I mean I hate you too and wanna see you dead as well, but I wanna do it myself instead of having that other dude do it^^" - especially since in CiV (just like in the real world!) no one likes each other. Every alliance and period of non war is only due to economic advantages.

 

[tithin]

I came to realise people who are afraid of getting owned on higher difficulties will now finally be able to break their fear and enter a higher difficulty (That being Warlord and Prince) since the intrigue will tell you if somebody is planning an attack, and hopefully if you have friends, they're gonna warn you.

So no more sneak attacks that you are completely unprepared for and getting your bottom whooped.

Espionage doesn't show up until the renaissance, and that's 1-200 turns into the game. You can still be sneak attacked / DoW'd prior to this - it's not like Espionage is a magic device that's always correct. Don't forget that:

1) It takes time to find out what the enemy is doing
2) What you find out is likely dependant on the rank of the spy doing the spying
3) It's possible for the spying to fail and for you to lose your spy.

Espionage is not a placebo for paranoia, merely a tool to focus that paranoia.

But that is completely unrealistic, i don't see Hitler attacking Musselini (oh god! I can't remember his name) because he covets his land. They both were allies. There is no proper alliances. I'm sure somebody like Gandhi and Kamehameha are gonna warn me. THat's my point.

It was Mussolini, and you're reffering to a specific time period / war in the real life as opposed to a videogame. You didn't see Hitler attacking Mussolini not only because they were allies, but because Hitler knew he wouldn't have the troops to take on both Italy and Russia at the same time. Once the Germans had secured France, they focused their attentions on Britain and the Eastern front. As smallfish said, if you were to look at the relationship between Hitler and Stalin, then yes, you would see that "covets russian land" thing came into play then.

Stalin and Hitler were not allies, but Stalin "respected" Hitler enough to stay out of the war - right up until 22 June 1941. And as an aside, it's reported that Stalin himself didn't believe the reports from the front line even as the Germans were marching into Russia.

 

[smallfish]

That's a backstab, but I don't expect Kamehameha or Gandhi to backstab me.

That's not a backstab at all. Hitler was pretty open about turning the Russian East into something of a trading post stack and razed cities ever since he wrote Mein Kampf, but he hid it well when the time came to put up a friendly face...

Just like a whole bunch of supposedly "lunatic" warmongerers in CiV actually.

and I'm sure plenty of other civs that are peaceful.

They are peaceful when it suits them.


e: what I'm mainly seeing with the new espionage mechanic is the ability to potentially reveal those "covet lands/wonders" types faster than taking 50 ingame turns for things to go sour. An interesting addition for sure, but it lacks the depth to pull off false flag ops.

 

[apocalypse105]

The reason WHy I don't play high diffuclties is because diplomacy becomes ed up


the AI act likes a crazy person

Maybe the expansion change that

 

[Tubbilicious]

I expect that there is a synergy between the *X is going to attack you here* and the supposedly improved sea attacks. On reflection, I suppose the sea attacks are going to be a lot more devastating (on the defender) than a direct land attack would be, both without the proper defensive preparation.

But since intrigue is unreliable, I'm not sure how effective it will be at allowing players on lower difficulty settings to improve. In fact, given that the claim from 2K is that the AI is playing better, people might need to drop down: Since the only reason I can play at Deity is (I guess) the AI's stupidity. Moreover, I will now have to produce a much more effective navy, soaking more production. If anything, I believe the game is about to get harder.

 

[apocalypse105]

Kamehameha is the greatest backstabber of them all! (well ok, 3rd or 4th, right behind Alex and Oda and maybe Caesar).

I don't see where "being friends and then backstab out of the blue" is more unrealistic than actually being able to say "I know this other guy is going to attack you in 10 turns? He told me everything about it for some unknown reason. He said he'll take city x of yours first. I just wanted to warn you. I mean I hate you too and wanna see you dead as well, but I wanna do it myself instead of having that other dude do it^^" - especially since in CiV (just like in the real world!) no one likes each other. Every alliance and period of non war is only due to economic advantages.

He is not the biggest backstabber but the most unbalanced one.

He hates you for everything he Denounces everyone So as result he will hate you because you are friends with one of them

He hates you because you are winning
He hates you because you are building wonder's.
He hates you if you declare war.
And SO on...

BUt a lot of other AI is like this so we can forgive him.. Lets hope that god's and king actualy feels differently

 

[blackcatatonic]

That's a backstab, but I don't expect Kamehameha or Gandhi to backstab me. and I'm sure plenty of other civs that are peaceful.

Gandhi always backstabs me. Not even joking. And I'm not an aggressive player!

The harder difficulties become very simple if you start the game knowing that anyone with territory close to yours is going to attack you. If you know this and build Walls in your cities, keep an archer garrisoned in them and have maybe 2 or 3 other units knocking around, it's not usually difficult to hold them off. Even on King I usually have time to get this kind of set-up in my cities and build at least 2 or 3 wonders in my capital before the first DOW.

 

[blackcatatonic]

He is not the biggest backstabber but the most unbalanced one.

He hates you for everything he Denounces everyone So as result he will hate you because you are friends with one of them

He hates you because you are winning
He hates you because you are building wonder's.
He hates you if you declare war.
And SO on...

BUt a lot of other AI is like this so we can forgive him.. Lets hope that god's and king actualy feels differently

I don't tend to have problems with Kamehameha. Maybe that's because I almost never sign DOFs. That will have to change in G&K though when they make them necessary for RAs.

 

[apocalypse105]

I don't tend to have problems with Kamehameha. Maybe that's because I almost never sign DOFs. That will have to change in G&K though when they make them necessary for RAs.

Well at least if the AI is less crazy and denounces everyone yeah

 

[elprofesor]

The DoF requirement for RAs is really going to change the game. I hope they have changed the DoF mechanic too, because getting asked favours when the civ asking them doesn't even need them and not being able to ask yourself is pretty one sided.

And to the OP, there's plenty of reasons in this thread why Civ5 actually feels less random than Civ4 for the backstabs: you know that everyone that shares your borders is going to attack you eventually, with some very rare exceptions (war against a common foe+liberating a civilian+DoF+DoF with the same 3rd civ, for example). Just gear for war, and be the one doing the backstabing; that way you catch them unaware, and you still get to keep an army in case somebody DoWs you.