Is Barrage broken?

[Caboose]

Are we going to remove barrage from ships as well?

Nonono, I don't agree to that. Can't remove the one without the other?

Idk, anything is fine by me. Doesn't make much of a difference for me whether we keep barrage for other units or not.

Seems from that Firaxis guy's statement that it wasn't intentional to remove barrage from armor? Whatever Firaxis deems balanced and intentional I'd go for.

 

[r_rolo1]

I don't think it was intentional, but only a unexpected consequence of the new barrage code......

 

[The-Chairmaker]

Props to everyone in this thread who spent their hard earned free time testing the hypotheses out.

So, post 3.17

Are Barrage Cats and Trebs more likely to survive then the CR Cats and Trebs?

If not, is the Barrage promotion still a solid play even if your Cat/Treb dies?

 

[Caboose]

Barrage is good for attacking a large stack which is not in a city.

And, no, Barrage does not increase the odds of surviving, it only does more collateral damage. Unlike City Raider.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

is the Barrage promotion still a solid play even if your Cat/Treb dies?

In the field, I think Barrage is going to be the play of choice in most circumstances. The one corner case I see is Barrage II vs Drill I + Shock, but B2 already gives a (smaller) bonus vs melee, so I don't think we have a problem.

Against cities... ugh. Lots of variables. Let's consider an idealized case, where we are inflicting collateral damage on longbows, with level 3 catapults. So we are looking at 9/10/13 collateral damage. Because of the collateral cap, the maximum amount of splash damage we can do is 45hp.

Let's suppose we had exactly 4 catapults to burn. 13+13+10+9 = 45, so we can already see that giving all of the catapults B2 is going to waste promotions.

note the implication here - the value of the cap matters. What's the cap vs str 8? str 10?.

The first question we might ask: is 45hp really that much better than 44? I think the previous study suggests "probably not", though there may be a circumstance where that would give you a jump point.

The next question: how much better is 44 than 40 than 36? Because of the non linearity of combat, 36 may be enough damage that the weighted risk to your subsequent attacking pieces is less than the reward of better odds for the cats.

 

[Caboose]

This is all very complex for me and I like to keep things simple.

So, in general, it's good to give a siege unit Barrage in almost any case, but if you want it to survive an attack on a city, give it City Raider?

That's my current implementation at least. If I can afford to sacrifice the siege unit, I give it Barrage, if logistics and production can't support it, I give it City Raider and heal it up for a new round.

And if I catch your drift, ALSO - it is generally best to have your Barrage units lead the way for the attack. I have always thought of that as logical and self-explaining myself, but I see your point in explaining it.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

This is all very complex for me and I like to keep things simple.

If you want simple - CR for units that attack cities, barrage for units that don't.

 

[Caboose]

Sure, if that's true I'll go with that. But I do send in fresh siege units that have not gained any experience through combat, with Barrage promition, to sacrifice themselves at some times. Should have said somewhat simple then. But I do think I catch your drift so thank you for your advice.

 

[The-Chairmaker]

note the implication here - the value of the cap matters. What's the cap vs str 8? str 10?.

Indeed. Really depends on how much the player wants to micro manage the attack.

I have a pre 3.17 game running where ALL my Cats are currently BII. I have just finished a war against Sury, which in my mind, took far too long. Due the length of the the front and the need constantly resupply Cats from my Production Cities located a ways away. (I was originally warring on Charles who w/ one city left became Sury's Vassal). I had to travel through all of my newly captured territory just to reach Sury. Sury wouldn't accept my calls and I owned SoZ so why not continue on the War and hope the SoZ ruins his economy.

I am going to replay the war with Cats w/ CRII and we'll see how much quicker it goes.

Sure it's not a mathematical World Builder test, but real world gameplay isn't all bad (and yes w/ all the variable to poke holes with it might mean nothing). Might take a day or two to post the results.

 

[JBossch]

I can't believe this thread still lives. The best part is that my comment from page 3 is still just as relevant:

The math geeks don't seem to understand that cannons wreck LB's. Spearmen have no problem mopping up the scraps. The same applies to any generational advantage in siege. Why debate irrelevant details like "barrage vs. CR?" Most high-level players seem to hold off on promotions until a decision is necessary. (Barrage vs. units in field, as softeners, etc.; CR vs. fortified city garrisons) Problem solved?

This thread has already become a CE vs. SE debate about nine pages ago and circled back to barrage vs. CR. No offense to the OP or the "math geeks" but this thread should be put out of its misery (though I know I am not helping )

 

[r_rolo1]

Well ,it spotted a bug in the new parch, so it was not completely useless

About your quote: high-level players rarely can get cannons + spears vs Lbows

 

[Balderstrom]

I have the SevoPedia in my Game, can anyone confirm what the Game lists as the effect of Barrage I,II,III is? Does it still state +20/30/50 as the effect?

Also I can't seem to find where the code is taking into account an increase due to the barrage promotions (for units that still have a base collateral damage amount).

Thanks.

If this has already been stated, otherwise sorry. What I have found:
void CvUnit::setHasPromotion, calls changeExtraCollateralDamage if you have Barrage...?

The old function, collateralDamage returned getCollateralDamage + getExtraCollateralDamage
The new function, does not count any bonus for Barrage when calling collateralDamage().

I can't find any reference in collateralCombat() or the sub functions that reference the value that the barrage promos increase, namely: m_iExtraCollateralDamage

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Also I can't seem to find where the code is taking into account an increase due to the barrage promotions (for units that still have a base collateral damage amount).

CvUnit::collateralDamage (CvUnit.cpp)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

About your quote: high-level players rarely can get cannons + spears vs Lbows

I'm sure a strategy article about combat strategy with units a generation ahead of your opponent would be fascinating, though.

 

[Balderstrom]

Thanks sorry, too many different versioned files open.

 

[vale]

I'm sure a strategy article about combat strategy with units a generation ahead of your opponent would be fascinating, though.

Only half of them are a generation ahead. The other half is a generation behind. This is a strategy that gives new meaning to mixed stacks.

 

[JBossch]

@Rolo:
I'm not sure if you consider me a "high-level player" (I win ~50-60% on immortal without overtly cheesy crap like new random seeds) but it is quite possible to take steel with Lib, though certainly not in every game. If you do, you will likely have cannons facing LBs and other medieval units. (check my Immortal U. VII game reports for an example of the slaughter that ensues.) I used to focus on a generational advantage in offensive units like rifles vs. LBs or muskets but lately I tend to focus on siege instead. When cannons run out of steam artillery devastates rifles and even infantry if you have enough. I just mentioned spears as an example of how, with enough siege, it doesn't much matter much what you use to mop up the bloodied scraps. I have had successful wars with cats backed up by archers and a spear or two.

I'm sure a strategy article about combat strategy with units a generation ahead of your opponent would be fascinating, though.

Maybe, but my point was kinda that with the generational advantage in siege you can disregard the details and just pummel the unprepared AI. You certainly don't need to read 14 pages of discussion on barrage vs. CR in this situation. It is particularly effective on higher difficulties where the AI has massive stacks (in IU VII I once spent 3 full turns slaughtering over 40 of Sury's knights with cannons/muskets/a few rifles. Can you say war weariness?). Maybe a better article would be how to get that generational advantage and put it to work conquering hapless wonder-spamming AIs.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Maybe, but my point was kinda that with the generational advantage in siege you can disregard the details and just pummel the unprepared AI.

Yes, but with a generational advantage in just about anything you can just pummel the unprepared AI. The finer details of the game just don't matter when you are in a dominant position.

On the other hand, when the position is unclear, the details tend to matter. The game tends to be dramatically non linear when forces are nearly balanced.

Maybe a better article would be how to get that generational advantage and put it to work conquering hapless wonder-spamming AIs.

It seems to be a good subject, and one that you are both interested in and have some experience with, so why don't you put up or shut up?

 

[JBossch]

It seems to be a good subject, and one that you are both interested in and have some experience with, so why don't you put up or shut up?

Fair enough, I'll get to work on it tomorrow.

 

[Balderstrom]

I've posted over in Solvers unofficial patch, what I believe is the correct fix. Take it with as many grains of salt as you need ;-)
I imagine if he's unwilling to fix what many consider a bug, another "unofficial patch" will be the result. Too many dislike it, and consider it a bug. I'm starting to agree with them.
The changelog indicates fixing the barage promotion issue. Something major like removing tanks ability wouldn't be skipped in a changelog.