Is Barrage broken?

[DanF5771]

...In reality, however, they do, up to a certain point that depends on the strength ratio between the two units and the amount of damage done (hitpoints)...

As far as I can read the code (CvUnit.cpp CvUnit::collateralCombat) the cap for iMaxDamage is independent of the opponent's hitpoints (you probabely mean the siege unit's inherent cap - Cat=50 ...).

Cat vs. Tank example:
I think the way it is implemented reflects the ability of the Cat to do some minor superficial damages to the Tank (in a reliable way) but the stray boulders won't get through to the vital components of the Tank. That seems very RL compatible.

IMHO more RNG dependency will only bring more frustration...

 

[siggboy]

As far as I can read the code (CvUnit.cpp CvUnit::collateralCombat) the cap for iMaxDamage is independent of the opponent's hitpoints (you probabely mean the siege unit's inherent cap - Cat=50 ...).

Yes, my wording was bad. What I meant was that collateral damage can not occur if the defender is too low on HP. "Too low" (the threshold) is determined by both (a) the strength ratio and (b) the type of siege unit. None of which is documented... sigh.

 

[Artichoker]

Even if Barrage is too weak for siege weapons, they still get plenty of options...including the C and CR promotions lines.

Tanks with Barrage gain the ability to cause collateral damage...which sets them apart from normal Tanks.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Nice work VoiceOfUnreason - just a minor correction:
Barrage II changes iCollateralStrength for Cats from 6 (Barrage I) to 7. The cap for iMaxDamage for a Cat when splashing strength 6 units is only <50 (it's inherent cap) when it is unpromoted.

Actually, it's not clear that's a minor correction; now that I've had some sleep, I see that the cap on collateral kicks in when iCollateralStrength >= theirStrength, or when the rounding is unfavorable as to make it close enough.

In any event, thank you. Full points for a good catch.

 

[DanF5771]

... the cap on collateral kicks in when iCollateralStrength >= theirStrength ...

Ahem, actually iMaxDamage < collateralDamageLimit() when iCollateralStrength < itheirStrength

unpromoted Cat vs. Pike:

Cat: iCollateralStrength = baseCombatStr() = 5 ; collateralDamageLimit() = 50
Pike: iTheirStrength = 6
--> iMaxDamage = 45​

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Ahem, actually iMaxDamage < collateralDamageLimit() when iCollateralStrength < itheirStrength

I'm happy to have you clarify this, since obviously my edit seemed ambiguous, but you've just written what I did with the inequalities turned around.

 

[oyzar]

Isn't this infintly old news? (that barage is mostly worthless at most times on units that already deal colleteral).

 

[siggboy]

If it's old news then it was worth rediscovery. Not a big deal since it only took us 8 pages...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Isn't this infintly old news? (that barage is mostly worthless at most times on units that already deal colleteral).

I don't think so - if you have a counter example, post a link.

It looks like my first review of collateral damage was in June of 2006. Since then, I've been keeping a casual eye on related threads that appear in Strategy and Tips. I haven't seen any analysis more sophisticated than examining the incremental improvement in damage.

The evidence here, which actually measures the leverage of the extra damage in context, is new to me, and one can reasonably conclude new to everyone else that was participating (since someone surely would have mentioned it).

But if you've been maintaining your Multiplayer Ranking by hoarding your secret knowledge of the Barrage promotion line, your reign is at an end!!!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

If it's old news, then how come so many contributors had no clue?

----

... great stuff, VoU ... I was so busy looking at battle outcomes I missed some of that.

Needless to say, I'm having trouble finding a situation favourable to Barrage.

About the best use for Barrage was on the last Catapults or in combination with the Combat promotion line.

In most cases, the difference between Barrage III and Combat 3 or Combat 2, Shock was in stark favour of Combat where the Catapults didn't already start with horrible Combat Odds (<5%).

----

So given that it takes 9 pages of discussion (and countless formulas, trials and "peeks under the hood") to learn Barrage has little (no) merit on Siege weapons ...

And that the improvement from one Barrage promotion to the next is sometimes +0% ...

blah blah blah ...


Have we come to a consensus Barrage is broken on Siege weapons?


Similarly, would reducing and moving the +whatever% so it applies directly to the 'base' iCollateralDamage be a better way to go about the Barrage promotion?

 

[Ibian]

Im mainly here for the barrage on tanks part. Siege weapons are overpowered, none of it really matters.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Similarly, would reducing and moving the +whatever% so it applies directly to the 'base' iCollateralDamage be a better way to go about the Barrage promotion?

The problem is Tanks - how do you handle collateral promotions for a unit with zero iCollateralStrength?

I suppose you could argue that the fix would be two promotion lines - one that improves Collateral Damage (for traditional seige units), and the other that improves Collateral Damage (for Tanks - is there a Stomp promotion? or maybe Squish?). Maybe another one that adjusts the number of targets?

On the damage side, you'd still end up with weird rounding effects - damage by a catapult on a pike would go 9/10/13/18 as you moved up the promotion line - three B II cats splash more than four unpromoted cats, and almost as much as four BI cats; two B III cats deliver the same punishment as four unpromoted cats.

At first pass it looks reasonable - the other units would need to be checked, and you'd need to make sure that you don't cross the promotions streams.

What I'm unsure about is balance with the other promotions - to wit, this is supposed to be a strategy game; if there's always one best choice, then we've missed the target. Actually making the barrage line useful definitely threatens the possibility that the other promotion lines are ever appropriate.

 

[siggboy]

Actually making the barrage line useful definitely threatens the possibility that the other promotion lines are ever appropriate.

I would say that even if the Barrage promotion did what its tooltip description does promise there would still be enough reason to also bring City Raider or Combat siege units (after all, they'd live much longer and earn you XP and GG points along the way).

Leaving Barrage as it is is definitely is not the way to go -- one should rather remove it completely as not to lure any more people into actually using it.

 

[DanF5771]

Well so far the discussion and the examples have mainly addressed the weakest siege units Cats & Trebs - here the unfortunate rounding issues have the greatest impact. So what about Barrage for the stronger siege weapons, tanks and ships?
IMHO Barrage III on Battleships is nice, especially since naval units can get the Blitz promo. It should help eliminating enemy naval stacks with a low quantity Combat-Barrage-Blitz task force.

 

[oyzar]

It is certanly mentioned somewhere in the strategy article forum(maybe the combat secion? maybe under promotions?). Since barrage only give +20% rounded down it actually doesn't give anything to trebutchets at all. Barrage 2 does give +2 (for how colleteral is calced) to trebutched but also only +2(7.5 rounded down) to cats. Due to rounding barrage have never been very strong and due to the increased survival rate from combat / CR / counter promotions as well as increased damage to top defender the other promos are more often than not alot better...

for tanks and other such units their colleteral is increased from 0 to 20%(and 50%) instead of from 100% to 120% etc...

BTW in my vocabularly broken means overpowered so the title of this thread can be misleading .

 

[CivCorpse]

Barrage on tanks is just plain sick. It measn that with a good use of spies I don't have to wait for my pokey arty to crawl up before I get mobile arty. Or I can use bombers to drop defenses. I usually give the max CR promotions I can while still being able to give barrage1. The CR is just to help the unit survive so i don't have to make extras. usually 2-3 of them will bang the defenders up enough that the CR3 tanks just roll on in. LOL, not that CR3 tanks need a lot of help. But in cities where the enemy has multiple Anti-tank infantry it helps a bit if you bang them up first. artilery are the best for collateral damage but if you're trying a blitzkrieg waiting for them lows you down considerably.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

It is certanly mentioned somewhere in the strategy article forum(maybe the combat secion? maybe under promotions?). Since barrage only give +20% rounded down it actually doesn't give anything to trebutchets at all. Barrage 2 does give +2 (for how colleteral is calced) to trebutched but also only +2(7.5 rounded down) to cats. Due to rounding barrage have never been very strong and due to the increased survival rate from combat / CR / counter promotions as well as increased damage to top defender the other promos are more often than not alot better...

Well, as was pointed out up thread the main combat article in the strategy forum has the rounding wrong, so it's probably fair to assume that a number of people are still confused on that topic.

And the effect of iCollateralStrength on the cap? I had forgotten that I had posted about that myself in a previous discussion. For certain I had never made the connection about the sequencing of splash attacks (although in retrospect I feel silly for missing it).

And finally, in the generally interesting cases the survival rate of anything isn't very strong, unless you happen to catch a jump point.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

So what about Barrage for the stronger siege weapons, tanks and ships?

I have absolutely no interest unless someone else - preferably someone new - decides to do all of the work, and takes the time to do it well.

The whole "you haven't proved anything until you've addressed these goalposts that I keep moving and isn't that outcome what everybody knows anyway" routine completely saps any generous impulses I might have.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

So what about Barrage for ... tanks and ships?

I think any 1st level promotion vs Barrage 1 on Tanks & Ships is like Apples vs Oranges. At the very least, I doubt any 1st level promotion can best Barrage I on Tanks & Ships.

Barrage II & III will also likely hold their ground. For example:

In the case of a Tank causing collateral damage against a Mechanized Infantry: Barrage I causes 4 HP collateral damage; Barrage II causes +50% more @ 6 HP; Barrage III causes another +75% @ 9 HP.

That's a fairly consistent scenario, so it's also very likely any changes made to fix Barrage on Siege units will truly "break" (as in overpower) Barrage on Armoured and Naval units.

... unless someone else - preferably someone new - decides to do all of the work, and takes the time to do it well.

Is that to say nobody so far in this thread has taken the time to be thorough or to do quality work?

Specifically, what would you define as "done well"?

I generally have the time and certainly still have the desire to get to the bottom of this, so if there's any direction to give, I'm all ears.

If you supply the brain, I'll supply the brawn.

 

[CivCorpse]

OMG, don't you people listen...i have been saying for about 7 pages that barrage is not meant for attacking cities. CR is. Why do you insist on continuing to run tests using barrage for attacking cities? For cities use CR for siege. Saying barrage is broken because it is being used when there is something better designed for the task, is like saying the wrench is broken because it isn't effective for hammering a nail.
Barrage is meant to be used in the open field to inflict the maximum amount of COLLATERAL damage throughout the stack. It is not meant to increase the odds of the siege unit attacking, or to do maximum damage to the top defender. IBarrage delivers more COLLATERAL damage. That is the exact description of the promotion, so why do you insist on measuring it in other ways. Take a big stack, attack it with a barrage promoted unit and then attack an identical stack with a non barrage unit. If the COLLATERAL damage is more for the barrage unit then "barrage" is not broken. It did more collateral damage as advertised. It's not broken.
The whole point is to damage the units that rotate to the top when you attack with your non-siege weapons. Not to increase the likelihood of the siege weapon surviving. It is to weaken the specific counter units to the ones you have making the following attacks.

So NO barrage isn't broken. The thing that is broken is the people trying to evaluate it on doing a job it was not meant to do. Do you say the carving knife is broken because it does not perform delicate surgery as well as a scalpal? No, that is like saying the scalpal is broken because it doesn't carve a turkey well.