Is Civ 6 PC: A continuation.

Duke William of Normandy

King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
3,728
Location
Rouen, Normandy
Last edited:
First time in this subforum, no idea what the climate here is like so not sure I'll stay if it's like super contentious here (at least moreso than the original thread already was). But I figure I'll try kicking off this thread by quoting the main points of what I posted, others can do the same, respond to what I said, idk
Defining "political correctness" as "trying not to offend particular demographics/societal groups", yeah I think I'd say Civ 6 is PC. But defining it instead as "going too far to avoid offending anyone", I think that you'd have to have a wildly skewed vision of the world to think Civ 6 is PC.
As many, including @Duke William of Normandy have pointed out, there's absolutely no way you could ever avoid offending everyone, so I feel like trying to call things "too PC" is often pretty meaningless, or rather it actually means "too willing to cater to other people's political beliefs, and not willing enough to cater to mine". Also "political correctness" is often talked about as if it specifically means "trying way too hard not to offend lefties/progressives/wokescolds", when I think it could equally be used to mean "trying way too hard not to offend right-wingers/conservatives". And under both of these definitions, I feel like Civ 6 is absolutely not "too PC".
My stance [regarding freedom of speech] is that people should be free to say and believe whatever they want, mostly. Freedom of beliefs should be unabridgeable, whereas freedom to act on them, as well as freedom of speech, should only be abridged where it harms others. People should be free to believe I'm an immoral satanic sexual deviant for saying I'm a pansexual nonbinary person. People should not be free to force me to go to "conversion therapy" and get electrocuted until I stop saying I'm queer. (To be very clear I'm not accusing anyone here of holding these beliefs, it's just a hyperbolic example.)
Another point - freedom of speech must not be tolerant of speech which threatens to unnecessarily abridge others' freedom of speech, or else it allows its own destruction.
 
Greetings, and welcome to OT. First of all, there’s a Civilization 6? What a time to be alive!

But in all seriousness, I’ve not played the game so is there a Cliff’s Notes version of the controversy?

Without knowing further, this is all I can say: given that the game is an abstraction, the closer any development team gets to trying to simulate a “real world” is going to run up against controversy. Take a game like SimCity: there’s no discussion of institutional racism in the police, or anti-gay violence, etc. because all denizens are just an abstract. They have no culture, no race, no sexuality; all of that is just in the player’s imagination.

When more features unique to certain cultures are added, the likelihood that someone will take offense becomes greater. The question development teams need to ask themselves if they want to avoid this problem is: how much adding of “real world” elements adds to the game, and is there a way we can substitute those elements without moving the franchise away from its foundations?
 
Very much. :p
Well, let me be the first to say: welcome (back?) to Off Topic :D The problem with anything relating to "political correctness" is it's inherently based in ideology as such it's difficult to get value from discussions around it (my opinion of course lol). The Wiki page was helpfully linked in the original thread, but I'll quote the etmyology of the phrase (from Wiki) for convenience, which may be helpful.
Early usage of the term politically correct by leftists in the 1970s and 1980s was as self-critical satire; usage was ironic, rather than a name for a serious political movement. It was considered an in-joke among leftists used to satirise those who were too rigid in their adherence to political orthodoxy.

The modern pejorative usage of the term emerged from conservative criticism of the New Left in the late 20th century. This usage was popularized by a number of articles in The New York Times and other media throughout the 1990s, and was widely used in the debate surrounding Allan Bloom's 1987 book The Closing of the American Mind. The term gained further currency in response to Roger Kimball's Tenured Radicals (1990), and conservative author Dinesh D'Souza's 1991 book Illiberal Education.

Commentators on the political left in the United States contend that conservatives use the concept of political correctness to downplay and divert attention from substantively discriminatory behavior against disadvantaged groups. They also argue that the political right enforces its own forms of political correctness to suppress criticism of its favored constituencies and ideologies. In the United States, the term has played a major role in the "culture war" between liberals and conservatives.
Which demonstrates neatly the problem in discussing any accusation of political correctness, because it's a word weighted in rhetoric from one side / part of the (cultural) political spectrum. It's a phrased design and intended from the (modern) offset to be weaponised that has also bled into slighter wider (mostly online) culture.

The second is evidence. We (here in OT) recently had a thread on "cancel culture", which is often related to political correctness along the same kind of lines, and there's often a major push for specific examples. It's very easy to say <something> is destroying society, etc. It's harder to demonstrate this. Now, in any real terms, is Civilisation VI going to "destroy society" or even anything close to that? Of course not, it's a video game. It's a good, popular, and inspiring one (I love it), but it's "just" a video game. It's not historically-accurate to a fault; history services the game itself rather than the other way around.

So, to me, it becomes this merry-go-round of being a mere example in the greater "culture war" (from the Wiki excerpt). The problem isn't Civ 6 particularly, or really anything Civ 6 does. As the original thread demonstrates, the most, uh, vocal pushback is from individuals that believe political correctness as a "thing" is encroaching on society as a whole. And that's a very tricky thing to discuss, for the reasons mentioned earlier in my post.

That's my summary, enjoy your stay!
 
Since @AriaLyric decided to quote their own post to summarize their POV of all of this, I decided I would do that as well.

So, to summarize all of this, it seems that Civilization 6 walks on a tightrope while also having to balance plates on their fingers. One little nudge to either side and they will fall prey to either side of the political extremes. And that's fine. No matter what Firaxis tries to do, there will always be that vocal minority that turns on a siren whenever they see something that doesn't conform to their political beliefs. This is a fact for everything and everyone in the world. Even if Firaxis does cave to one side for one reason or another, the situation won't get better for them because once they are given an inch, they will demand a foot or a mile as well.

So, in my honest opinion, the best thing that Firaxis can do is ignore them whenever the minority plays the siren and focus on making their games better and more enjoyable. It will be best for everyone should they do so.

Thank you for attending my Tedx Talk, ladies and gentlemen.
 
The second is evidence. We (here in OT) recently had a thread on "cancel culture", which is often related to political correctness along the same kind of lines, and there's often a major push for specific examples.

"Cancel culture" is just "political correctness" rebranded for today, a silly boogeyman that people create when they don't like suffering consequences for their actions.
 
@Guynemer Ok, let's say that is the situation, an employee believing in racial superiority and you fired her. Sure, and what did you achieve there? I'll tell you what you achieved, you were able to move a terrible person from one place to another, instead of her being your employee and your responsibility, you just made her, with her same terrible views/opinions, the responsibility of her future employer. Other employees in your company with the same terrible views now learned that instead of voicing their opinions publicly, they will now have to do it with anonymity. Nothing changes, same number of terrible people in the same society when you go home patting yourself on the back for combating racism successfully. Good job.
When I said "When you are criticized, you get a chance to rethink your decision and make a change accordingly," it means if your "criticism" doesn't get followed up by some level of education, or some chances to let people change, that "criticism" doesn't achieve anything. You can send people to prison for decades, but without proper education when they are inside (which is a huge problem with American correctional facilities), they will end up going right back. Back to the employee situation, are you censoring her by firing her? Yes, even in this case where the censorship is justified, you suppress her and people with similar opinions from speaking up because of possible retaliation, a.k.a. censorship. Obviously, you had to pick a situation where the censorship is completely justified to put yourself in an easy logical and moral high ground, but in many other situations where things are not totally black and white, people do get punished for having an opinion that falls outside the latest political fads.
Back to the first comment I made that you quoted, I said people were capable of change if there was enough compassion to allow the change to happen, but people won't change easily, or at all, if they are dealing with people like you, whose knee jerk reaction is "certain consequences/punishments must be dished out" instead of how to change bad world views, but apparently what you could only pick out from that initial comment was "CriTIcisM iS noT CenSoRshIP." If focusing on consequences truly works, the correctional system of America must be 5 stars. The same people you silence today without any effort into changing them are the same people going into the voting booth with you tomorrow.
 
like so not sure I'll stay if it's like super contentious here

Welcome to Off-Topic, we are much cooler than the game forums actually.

"Cancel culture" is just "political correctness" rebranded for today, a silly boogeyman that people create when they don't like suffering consequences for their actions.

Well, that's an interesting point because I think that you would not agree that someone who was, say, fired for expressing sympathy with Black Lives Matter was just "suffering consequences for their actions" or something similar. I think you would agree that this constituted an egregious imposition into someone's private life on the part of an employer.
 
But in all seriousness, I’ve not played the game so is there a Cliff’s Notes version of the controversy?
Did a bit of digging, and I'm pretty sure the impetus to the creation of the thread starts about here and continues on to the fifth post of the next page. @Duke William of Normandy's post here shows some more background (out of the things mentioned in that post, one is the last comment on this video, one is from a series of now-deleted forum posts by GenyaArikado (not sure if it's bad form to tag them), and one is from this thread). Another notable bit of recent controversy is this thread.
From what I remember, a lot of discussion centered on things like leader gender ratios (spurred by the last addition to the New Frontier Pass, Joao III, being a man when previous precedent on gender ratios led many to predict a female leader), eurocentrism (again spurred by Portugal's inclusion, as each addition to the pass was drawing a civ/leader from a specific area of the world, and before Portugal was confirmed, we had already gotten a European pack (gaul and byzantium) and hadn't yet gotten a North American one), and a lack of a direct slavery mechanic in-game.
 
I just do not see this in the same way at all, I'm sorry.

To me, censorship has a very specific definition--you are not allowed to say X under penalty of law. Anything short of that is not censorship, it is simply social consequences, consequences that we deal with every day.

If someone is in my house, and they say something I don't like and I ask them to leave, I am not censoring them. They can continue to say whatever they want; they just don't get to do it in my house.

As for what I picked out of that comment:
So unless there is a way to truly get rid of a person for holding an opinion that is different from existing ones (which are dictated by you "woke" folks), you don't do the society a service by censoring people's voices.

What else am I supposed to get out of it? You are conflating criticism with censorship. Criticism is the equal exercise of free speech. Boycotts are free speech. Disassociation is free speech.


EDIT: this is @DogeEnricoDandolo, obviouly
 
Well, that's an interesting point because I think that you would not agree that someone who was, say, fired for expressing sympathy with Black Lives Matter was just "suffering consequences for their actions" or something similar. I think you would agree that this constituted an egregious imposition into someone's private life on the part of an employer.

I certainly would not fire someone for such a statement, but neither would I say that they were being censored.
 
Welcome to CFC:OT all you Civ VIers.
 
I certainly would not fire someone for such a statement, but neither would I say that they were being censored.

Well, leave aside the term "censor" for a moment and just tell me whether you think what I described would be an injustice.

Incidentally, I thought your scenario closing the previous thread was somewhat unclear. It is very unlikely that an employee would be fired simply for "being racist." A more realistic scenario would be a worker fired for creating a hostile working environment for their (say, black) coworkers with constant racist comments or slurs. This, of course, would not be an example of censorship at all!
 
What else am I supposed to get out of it?
Well, let them speak! If they don't speak their terrible opinions out loud, we don't have the chance to tell them that they are wrong or should see the world in a different way! There are a lot of videos online about ex-Klans member or people who were brought up in Westboro Baptist Church who got changed, surprisingly enough, not by the people who yelled labels at them but by the people who let them see a different perspective. There are people who are too far-gone that we can't change them, but there are that we can. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe people have a capability to change for the better. Otherwise, they will just recede to their own echo chamber where everyone shares with one another disgusting world views.
They can continue to say whatever they want; they just don't get to do it in my house.
I hope not everyone is like this. You will end up with the same cesspool but just keep moving the turds around.
 
Well, leave aside the term "censor" for a moment and just tell me whether you think what I described would be an injustice.

Incidentally, I thought your scenario closing the previous thread was somewhat unclear. It is very unlikely that an employee would be fired simply for "being racist." A more realistic scenario would be a worker fired for creating a hostile working environment for their (say, black) coworkers with constant racist comments or slurs. This, of course, would not be an example of censorship at all!

Well, the only way I would know this hypothetical employee was racist would be if she said or did something. If she keeps said thoughts entirely to herself, I'd never know.
 
Back
Top Bottom