Is completely ignoring health viable for a wide game?

[ZHONN]

Overall, we can conclude that the knowledge build ignoring health is better at culture but worse at production than the prosperity build. Science-wise they seem rather balanced, so right now I would say both builds are quite viable.

What about 6% tech cost increase per additional city with knowledge compared to 10% on prosperity?

 

[alpaca]

What about 6% tech cost increase per additional city with knowledge compared to 10% on prosperity?

It's 3% vs 5%, I think, which is mostly what the post was about.

 

[ZHONN]

It's 3% vs 5%, I think, which is mostly what the post was about.

Nevermind, I'm blind. I'll have have a look at the math.

 

[misterchief]

In my current game, going for a Domination win, I've gone wide focusing on the Might and Prosperity trees and it's felt impossible to keep health up, even though I've prioritized health buildings and health techs. So at around -40 health I finally gave up on even bothering to get my health up. I just kept my war machine rolling. I'm currently around -80 health with two more easy capitals to take. Each of my cities is fairly weak (low pop) due to poor growth over the course of the game, but my empire is so wide that it doesn't matter. I've kept up in tech by stealing it and through trade routes from my bajillion cities.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The problem with Health buildings is that they are local health, so you need other sources of base health as your empire expands. That's why Prosperity is so poweful: Mind Over Matter, Eudaimonia, Joy from Variety and Synergy II are all base health modifiers - if you combine them you will half the health cost per city (down to 2, from 4) and get roughly a dozen extra base health.

 

[hbar]

One thing I haven't seen discussed here is that if you ignore health, Manufactories have no downside (other than energy maintenance, but I've literally never gone energy negative). That easily reverses the production penalty, which accelerates science and culture buildings. I might give this a shot with a goal of manufactoring or farming everything.

 

[omniclast]

Overall, we can conclude that the knowledge build ignoring health is better at culture but worse at production than the prosperity build. Science-wise they seem rather balanced, so right now I would say both builds are quite viable.

Wouldn't this imply that the knowledge build is strictly better, since with more culture you would complete virtues faster and therefore achieve the bonuses sooner?

 

[alpaca]

One thing I haven't seen discussed here is that if you ignore health, Manufactories have no downside (other than energy maintenance, but I've literally never gone energy negative). That easily reverses the production penalty, which accelerates science and culture buildings. I might give this a shot with a goal of manufactoring or farming everything.

While that's true, it certainly won't offset a 20% difference. Manufactories have just a minor production bonus over mines and 50-80% of your production will be from trade routes anyways, with the rest mostly from titanium mines. I've seen it, and it might be worth mentioning, but it doesn't suddenly make manufactories great (just not super useless without the virtue).

Wouldn't this imply that the knowledge build is strictly better, since with more culture you would complete virtues faster and therefore achieve the bonuses sooner?

Uh, no? The production bonus is still significant, and science-wise I think it's more or less a draw, perhaps with a slight advantage for the prosperity version, so it's not strictly better. It might be better all things considered, though, especially seeing how it's much easier to absorb conquest than if you try to stay at positive health. In the game I just finished (all standard Pangaea with Elodie, Apollo) in turn 210 with the exodus gate - could have finished turn 200 with domination if i'd wanted to - I had -340 health in the end from -130 or so before I started conquering. I think there's probably no way to absorb all that health from the huge AI cities if you want to stay positive.

 

[hbar]

While that's true, it certainly won't offset a 20% difference. Manufactories have just a minor production bonus over mines

That's not true at all. +5 production (+7 with the Social Investment policy) is huge compared to +1 or +2 for a mine. I tried this last night with a Slav slingshot to Robotics, and assuming you're ignoring health it's really powerful. A single manufactory is on par with a mid-game internal trade route, and it frees up your caravans to trade for science.

I think Manufactoriess might be woefully misunderstood. The yield is +3, but it also gives +2 production to the city regardless of if it's being worked or not. And, if you're ignoring health, you can stack that as many times as you want.

 

[omniclast]

I think Manufactoriess might be woefully misunderstood. The yield is +3, but it also gives +2 production to the city regardless of if it's being worked or not. And, if you're ignoring health, you can stack that as many times as you want.

I definitely misunderstood this...is it +2 per manufactory or just +2 for having one fac in workable range?

 

[Toranth]

I think Manufactoriess might be woefully misunderstood. The yield is +3, but it also gives +2 production to the city regardless of if it's being worked or not. And, if you're ignoring health, you can stack that as many times as you want.

Can you demonstrate this? I just double-checked, and in my game, this is not true.
I went to a city with a Manufactory, unassigned all workers, and totaled all the production. It matched the terrain/building/specialist summary in the tooltip, with no "Other Sources".

There was no +2 in the city from having a Manufactory.

 

[hbar]

Alright, then the Firaxis documentation is terrible. Either way, when worked they give +5 or +7 production.

 

[DGDobrev]

I also play on Apollo guys, and my observations are the same. Health is (almost) moot vs AIs, especially if you care to leave a spy to do counters in your capital and happen to build a few counter-spy buildings, as AIs will coup you. Seems kinda random, but they do try it - I can confirm it. I went terribly low on health (I think -60) and left my cap at lvl 5 intrigue absolutely intentionally for like 25 turns and they did flip it. I gotta say I was pleasantly surprised. Players are much smarter. And they can PM each other and kinda foil your great domination plan even if you have a spy in your capital to do counters. In my case, it really depends on where I'm standing and what I'm going for. Well, as I am sure it is the same for all of you.

 

[CraziFuzzy]

The trade ball overcomes early health penalties, and then makes it really easy to recover health once you get a couple key techs and virtues. You then have the lingering effects of the rapid early start, and non of the long term negatives of unhealthiness.

 

[alpaca]

Alright, then the Firaxis documentation is terrible. Either way, when worked they give +5 or +7 production.

Are you sure about this? I'll have to check it more carefully, but I've been working under the assumption that they only yield 3 hammers (5 with Social Investment)

 

[hbar]

I can post a screenshot this weekend, but I distinctly remember grinning at my 9-production plains hill tile. If you check the Robotics entry on the tech web it clearly shows two additions to production:

You can see why people are confused, it adds 2 production and has +3 production yield. Compare that to the Biowell:

Which adds 1 health and yields 2 food. I have no idea why they split it up like this (maybe the MF provided something else that they ended up cutting before release?), but it's definitely way better than a mine.

 

[Toranth]

I can post a screenshot this weekend, but I distinctly remember grinning at my 9-production plains hill tile. If you check the Robotics entry on the tech web it clearly shows two additions to production:

You can see why people are confused, it adds 2 production and has +3 production yield.

I can see what it says in the tooltip, but that isn't what is happening. When built on a grasslands tile, the Manufactory initially provides +3 production. Try it yourself: Build a new size 1 city, and build a Manufactory as the only improvement.
You'll see that the city has production equal to: The city tile + manufactory tile's base production + 3 (for the manufactory).

As for the tooltip, notice that Academies are written the same way, but you don't get +5 science from one. The Civilopedia correctly shows both as giving a flat +3. I suspect that there was a change from +2 to +3 late in development, and someone forgot to update the tooltips.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Checking the game files seems to support this idea. The game shows the normal yield in the tooltip (Yield: 3), but there is a seperate HELP entry (that is shown within the tooltip) that states it produces 2. Normally those HELP texts are only used to visualize stuff that the game won't display by itself (e.g. Free Virtue, Free Tech).

 

[alpaca]

I can see what it says in the tooltip, but that isn't what is happening. When built on a grasslands tile, the Manufactory initially provides +3 production. Try it yourself: Build a new size 1 city, and build a Manufactory as the only improvement.
You'll see that the city has production equal to: The city tile + manufactory tile's base production + 3 (for the manufactory).

As for the tooltip, notice that Academies are written the same way, but you don't get +5 science from one. The Civilopedia correctly shows both as giving a flat +3. I suspect that there was a change from +2 to +3 late in development, and someone forgot to update the tooltips.

I confirm that it only yields +3 hammers without the virtue.