Brainstorm: An expansive Huayna Capac would pwn: half-price terraces!!!
Eh yeah, except Huayna Capac is already ridiculously good as it is and there's really no reason to boost him any further.
Is Expansive underrated?
- Thread starter Legal_My_Deagle
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Eh yeah, except Huayna Capac is already ridiculously good as it is and there's really no reason to boost him any further.
The Industrious trait is often overrated, in my humble opinion, as much as the Expansive trait is underrated. Before the worker bonus, Expansive, I think, lacked real flavor, and its health bonus tended to go unappreciated, especially on low difficulty levels when players wouldn't hit their health caps too quickly.
Then, they got a worker bonus, and with the worker bonus, you only need +2 health. The quick worker production is simply amazing, and after you get that first worker out, chop-rush a second one (and you get all the more hammers from your chop-rush). That'll get your terrain improved really quickly. The granaries are one of my "most-built" buildings in the game, so I'll use the double production bonus there. Double production on harbors is superfluous but delicious.
Overall, I'll call it balanced and good--I'll use Expansive leaders, no problem.
Then, they got a worker bonus, and with the worker bonus, you only need +2 health. The quick worker production is simply amazing, and after you get that first worker out, chop-rush a second one (and you get all the more hammers from your chop-rush). That'll get your terrain improved really quickly. The granaries are one of my "most-built" buildings in the game, so I'll use the double production bonus there. Double production on harbors is superfluous but delicious.
Overall, I'll call it balanced and good--I'll use Expansive leaders, no problem.
SlightlyMad
Prince
Pacal in particular is amazing. Expansive for +2 health, and an additional +2 happy available very early on from the ball court. That's +2 free population per city that you can support. That means either running 2 extra specialists in a specialist economy, or working 2 extra towns in a cottage economy (with the right civics, levees, and the financial trait, that's what 6F, 4H, 20G on a floodplain?).
TheWilltoAct
I am observe
Hm... I'm glad I read this: I finished a game last night (lost 
) so obviously today will probably be my day to start a new one 
Sounds like Expansive might go on my list of "good" traits...
However:
I think you are getting a tad overexcited... having +2 healthiness hardly means you can now "spam" unhealthiness buildings!!! The extra healthiness may allow you to plug in some power to those factories that you've built - which is certainly beneficial - I just don't think spam is the right word...
) so obviously today will probably be my day to start a new one Sounds like Expansive might go on my list of "good" traits...However:
... Faster city growth is always good, but what I really like about the trait is all of the little things that this allows you to do that you probably wouldn't with a non-Expansive civ.....such as spamming all of the unhealthy buildings that produce a lot offor example.
At least with me, with a non Expansive leader I don't tend to spam these things nearly as much. Forges, Coal Plants, Industrial Parks, oh my!
I think you are getting a tad overexcited... having +2 healthiness hardly means you can now "spam" unhealthiness buildings!!! The extra healthiness may allow you to plug in some power to those factories that you've built - which is certainly beneficial - I just don't think spam is the right word...
I think +3 happy + half price granary/harbor is much more useful than +2 happy but +25% worker ( only hammers) production .
I'd probably rename the Expansive trait into something like ' agricultural' or something . Or at least change its value . make it something like financial except with food . On every plot with 2 F , you get 1F extra and maybe a quick granary . Drop the health bonuses , the stupid nerfing , and worker ' bonus'
But I guess Firaxis wants to keep a trait around that specifically focuses on health .
I'd probably rename the Expansive trait into something like ' agricultural' or something . Or at least change its value . make it something like financial except with food . On every plot with 2 F , you get 1F extra and maybe a quick granary . Drop the health bonuses , the stupid nerfing , and worker ' bonus'
But I guess Firaxis wants to keep a trait around that specifically focuses on health .
That would be insane. Agricultural was hands down the most powerful trait in Civ3, and it wasn't even as powerful as what you propose.
The extra +1 health will only matter in the latter parts of the game, and only in your largest cities. The +25% Worker bonus is freaky powerful. If you use it to spam lots of workers really fast, you'll understand why Expansive Civs in the right hands get insanely big cities in record time.
What does a +25% bonus on Worker do? It means you get your first worker in 10 turns instead of 12, and that means 2 turns advantage in city growth, as well as a 2 turn advantage in tile improvement! As your cities spread, the worker advantage in terms of improvement and city growth bonus just escalates.
The thing to remember when playing Expansive Civs is that your happiness will be your most important city size limiter, meaning that you either have to hunt for a lot of happies, or you need to get to Hereditary Rule ASAP. Rep's +3 Happy Faces per city just isn't going to cut it.
Expansive is basically like Agricultural, only you get a limited +2 food bonus tops, and it only happens at the highest pop points. Of course, the half-price Granaries help to grow the cities fast, but this combination is balanced.
+1 Food on practically every food tile is just insane.
The extra +1 health will only matter in the latter parts of the game, and only in your largest cities. The +25% Worker bonus is freaky powerful. If you use it to spam lots of workers really fast, you'll understand why Expansive Civs in the right hands get insanely big cities in record time.
What does a +25% bonus on Worker do? It means you get your first worker in 10 turns instead of 12, and that means 2 turns advantage in city growth, as well as a 2 turn advantage in tile improvement! As your cities spread, the worker advantage in terms of improvement and city growth bonus just escalates.
The thing to remember when playing Expansive Civs is that your happiness will be your most important city size limiter, meaning that you either have to hunt for a lot of happies, or you need to get to Hereditary Rule ASAP. Rep's +3 Happy Faces per city just isn't going to cut it.
Expansive is basically like Agricultural, only you get a limited +2 food bonus tops, and it only happens at the highest pop points. Of course, the half-price Granaries help to grow the cities fast, but this combination is balanced.
+1 Food on practically every food tile is just insane.
Ok , just have the new Expansive like Financial , only the food bonus , no other bonuses .
Its only grasslands , Oasis , and flood plains that it would kick in . Now what would be freaky powerful is combining THAT Expansive with the Financial trait . Oh dear God ...
Its only grasslands , Oasis , and flood plains that it would kick in . Now what would be freaky powerful is combining THAT Expansive with the Financial trait . Oh dear God ...
SlightlyMad
Prince
Haha, no way. Not only would it be +1 food on all of those, but also from farmed plains and lighthouse water. That would actually have an even more dramatic effect than biology.
For a bit of perspective, think about how powerful maoai statues is, and imagine that in every city, except even better, as surplus food can be used either to support working production plots, or to run specialists.
A trait that increases food like that would make running SE absurdly broken.
For a bit of perspective, think about how powerful maoai statues is, and imagine that in every city, except even better, as surplus food can be used either to support working production plots, or to run specialists.
A trait that increases food like that would make running SE absurdly broken.
bardolph
King
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The Dutch get the Dike UB, which is like having Moai Statues in every city, except that the Moai statues can be combined with the Dike!
Silence101
King
Question: Is Expansive underrated?
Answer: No.
Answer: No.
bardolph
King
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All it means is more Cottages to pillage - Delicious!
bardolph
King
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Ooh, wonders to take? Even better!No such luck if you have a financial civ on the sea with a collosus .
Jabarto
Emperor
Mehmed is possibly my favorite leader for much the same reason. The +2 happiness/health from the Ub/traits, respectively, combined with the reduced government upkeep *and* cheap granaries and courthouses mean you can get a staggering population really quickly without breaking the bank.
On topic, there really isn't anything I could say that hasn't been mentioned. I consider Expansive to be an upper mid-tier trait because it's benefits are considerable throughout the entire game.
...
The point of Financial, though, is that tiles besides cottages, such as plantations, horse pastures, sea tiles, special mined resources, etc. all produce more commerce as well. You don't have to cottage spam to maximize the benefits of the Financial trait, and I've had a lot of success working with a hybrid system of some cottages plus 2-3 specialists a city.
Silbeg
Wise @$$ Loud Mouth
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such as spamming all of the unhealthy buildings that produce a lot of
At least with me, with a non Expansive leader I don't tend to spam these things nearly as much. Forges, Coal Plants, Industrial Parks, oh my!
I don't know that I have ever been concerned about this... in general, for production cities especially (where the factories, etc., will go) have already had an unhealthy amount of
, so I have never been stopped building an improvement just because of the health risk.It may mean I need to push towards some health-tech (recycling anyone?), but I'll take the health hit to increase my production where needed.
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