Is it ever worth it to not build a shrine with your first Great Prophet?

[Sparta]

Here's the specific situation: I have five cities, three with Buddhism, of which I am the founder. Monasteries are a long ways off right now, as is organized religion, at least for now, although I may adopt it in ~10-20 turns. Would it be reasonable to consider using my Oracle-derived first Great Prophet as a super specialist in my capital, rather than creating a shrine? I'd be taking two hammers and five coin over a measly three gold for some time (theoretically until Buddhism spreads by chance, as my making missionaries is not going to happen anytime soon). Is the added influence of a shrine/holy city worth much in terms of spreading religion naturally? I'm somewhat inclined to leave the shrine until my second prophet, unless I'm missing something.
(Emperor, large map, all randoms and defaults, and I theoretically expect to have up to six more cities founded yet, at a fairly moderated pace, that could someday adopt Buddhism (although my capital is shaping up to be heavily financial, and could really use those two extra shields). Oh and I happened to get a Philosophical civ, so popping that second prophet would be cake (capital already has a temple to go with Oracle).) Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

 

[PopTarts]

I believe building the shrine also ups the chance that your religion spreads randomly, if you haven't taken that into account.

 

[Drake007]

you could also use him to get civil service if you havent researched masonry

 

[Sparta]

I believe building the shrine also ups the chance that your religion spreads randomly, if you haven't taken that into account.

Yeah, that's probably the mystery factor I'm wondering most about. I believe you are correct, but weighing the value of the unknown added influence of a shrine on cities I haven't even founded yet is a tough one. If I could somehow know (or even estimate) when religion would randomly spread to cities 4, 5, and 6, this decision would be a lot easier. Then again, I suppose quandaries like this are why I love Civ to start with.

 

[Sparta]

you could also use him to get civil service if you havent researched masonry

I'd seen that before, but I'm not a big fan of 'burning' my GP for techs, and I don't even have CoL yet anyway (desperately needed happiness, with gems my only pre-calendar luxury, so I'd taken Metal Casting (for forges) with Oracle). Thanks for the suggestion and option though.

 

[rickmc]

can you actually chose which tech the GP will "help" research?

 

[drhirsch]

My first Great Profit usually becomes a super specialist. Not only the additional 2 hammers (which is a nice boost early on), which may be worth something like 2-4 gold, if you switch to representation from the pyramids you get additional 3 beakers.
Maybe I am a special case, because mostly I do not bother founding a religion, but even if I have snatched confuzianism by accident, I wont build a shrine, since it takes quite a while to get more than 8-10 cities with my religion.

 

[Drake007]

can you actually chose which tech the GP will "help" research?

no, but theres a few nice combos out there. A great prophet will give you civil service if you have code of laws but havent researched masonry (and thus cant research monotheism -> theology). Also, a great scientist will give you philosophy if you have code of laws and mathematics. Etc... use that thread to find which techs great people will prioritize over others:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

 

[KrikkitTwo]

can you actually chose which tech the GP will "help" research?

NO
You can 'manipulate' it by making sure certain techs are available but the Great People all have a specific order of what techs they will research and they always go for the top one available on their list (they only change what one they will research if the tech they Were going to research is acquired another way.)

as for the original point, because you plan on getting the second prophet fairly soon, then I'd say stick with a super specialist. (although saving for a high value tech also works.)

 

[Yzen Danek]

The Civil Service slingshot will outperform just about anything else you could do with them. It's just a huge, huge leg up for a large number of turns, and at higher difficulties, I doubt that any other strategy can give you tech parity as quickly as having this to trade (and this is such a leg up that you can typically wait quite a few turns before even having to think about giving this up). So, it's not just 'burning' a specialist for a single tech; it's using them to gain a whole ton of techs. You can usually parlay Civil Service into 8-9 techs.

Your capital is the only city that will be well developed this early in the game, and this give a 50% bonus to both hammer and production, as well as letting you build farms in otherwise impossible areas for your other cities to fuel city growth and GPP farm cities.

The only way I'd consider the super specialist route is if the map was so clearly going to give me the Pyramids that it's guaranteed that the specialist will give me not only two hammers and five coin but also the additional 3 beakers by switching to Representation. And that only if my capital city was weak on commerce; if my capital is well developed, the +50% will greatly outperform 5 gold, 2 hammers and 3 beakers.

 

[Drake007]

I'd seen that before, but I'm not a big fan of 'burning' my GP for techs..

Since you got metal casting with the oracle, using the guy on civil service could also give you macemen quite early, allowing you to go on a serious rampage. Hey you could even pop a great engineer with your forges and use him on machinery . If you dont feel like doing that, its still a good option because of what yzen danek said. Since you're philosophical and dont have code of laws though, it would be silly to make that great prophet sit there for nothing. I suggest burning your 2nd great prophet on civil service then.

I've found that a shrine helps significantly for spreading a religion, which is useful for getting some early friends and bribing them into wars (especially with a big tech like say civil service.....). Since your game is on emperor, doing that would help a lot. I never play large maps though (stupid pc), so i dont know how far the AIs are from you. Oh well thats one argument for the shrine, you judge!

 

[Drake007]

lol sparta was hesitating between two options and all we did was give him a few more

 

[Sparta]

Thanks very much for all the very good advice, everyone! Now I may be even more undecided than before though .

I've only made contact with two civs so far (Victoria, Kublai Kahn (?)), with (at least) a third suspected on my home continent, but I'm actually in good shape techwise, at least in comparison to them (I have alpha exclusively, and am about to trade IW to the Mongols for a bunch of cheap ancient era techs, at which point I should be +MC, -sailing and poly). So in the tech parity dept, I think I'm doing okay, from what I can see, and I've managed to seal off some land for myself (until the inevitable AI boats come), so war is not much of a priority just yet either.

I guess I had been planning to go CoL-Math-Calendar (need lux's), and then maybe Civil Service, but perhaps I should consider that slingshot. I just always feel better keeping GP's effects lasting, when I can (i.e. from my view, I could still get CS myself, if 20 turns later, and also have my two hammers and five gold.

I guess I have more thought to put into this. In the meantime, I still have to kill a couple more hours here at work, before I can get home and make up my mind ...

Edit:

lol sparta was hesitating between two options and all we did was give him a few more

That's what I was thinking! It's all good though - I'm glad to see alternatives, and Civ without these grey areas wouldn't be half as fun. Thanks again!