Is the Nature/Archery tree too weak?

[Zechnophobe]

Well, I've never, even once, owned a Marksmen. And I very rarely get Bowyers. Generally only on the way to Machinery for Clockwork Golems, meaning I've got gargoyles not Longbowmen.

So I think the Archery tree is pretty boring.

However, the Nature tree is actually pretty good. Definately different then Melee, arcane, or holy, but I don't see it as being weak. I'd generally call the priest tree to in general be weaker.

 

[Uberness]

I'm going to play a game dedicated to your Recon philosophy on my standard setup, as an experiment. Can you give me a rough tech order to approximate your play style? What victory you tend to shoot for?

Try khazad or Malakim decius, research all the common middle game economy lines like bronzeworking currency sanitation math, and get runes or empyrean based on civ, its after your economy is setup like that, you want to go animal handling feral bond and commune with nature, then animal mastery.

Rangers for malakim will come in handy, especially with poisoned blade, wouldn't make to many of them compared to radiant guards or ratha however, the real power comes from the druids the baron is only so-so, use your malakim power or pop out a priest of your religion and upgrade it to a druid, and you now either have a dwarf that can crush and heal, or a druid that can vitalize and use crown of brilliance while sitting on top of a mountain and attacking back, good idea to pick up earth/nature mana to buff them up.

For any neutral civ, you should aim for the druids, they just help the economy so much adding more food, especially on floodplains, or turning a giant area of snow into a great city location.

And of course if your playing elves especially svartalf, you can go animal handling as soon as your first tier of economy techs is cleared and use rangers to mop up all the 4 or 5 strength units around for the next 100 turns.

 

[RogueThunder]

I happen to highly appreciate Archery atleast. Although yeah, the line itself is rather lackluster.

A few javilin throwers(or archers if your someone who gets them xD) sitting on forested hills can easily early game take out the pyre without risk. This requires a fairly common terrain setup. Also, if you always build cities on hills(I sure do) Theyre surpringly stronger than axemen.

That said, they are bloody overpriced tech wise, yeah.

Oh. I do happen to play a tweaked version where warriors no longer have city defence, and only capitals have city bonus. XD So defence is a bit more... vital at times.

 

[KingOfLands]

Also, Poisons is valuable to any civ that can use assassins, not just Svartalfar and Sidar. Its effect of killing weak units (and finishing off units that have been damaged) is not duplicable by any other line.

Khazad assassins / shadows remain the most entertaining unit in the game, from my perspective.

 

[cabbagemeister]

I went archery-heavy in a Ljosafar game recently and even with the dextrous promotion I struggled mightily until I got spell support. For a game that encourages tech specialization, I don't think it's feasible for one branch to be the "defensive" branch like archery is supposed to be, because you have no options to expand via conquest. I have similar qualms about the recon line and its -20% city attack, although the strength of the Tier3 recon units and the animal handling aspects compensate pretty well. Longbows just don't have any cool compensating abilities. I'm not sure how to fix them aside from buffing them mercilessly (free Drill3 promos or something?), and then I would worry about going overboard.

Flurries are fun if you can get there, though.

 

[Ecofarm]

Khazad assassins / shadows remain the most entertaining unit in the game, from my perspective.

Good idea to put it in perspective. Allow me to present mine.

1. Balseraph Druid* Mobility2, Mind, Chaos, Command (with 7, 11)
2. Svart Archmage Mobility, Mind, Shadow, Extension (with 5 and 6 or 7, 11)
3. Grigori Archmage Mobility, Enchantment, Chaos, Twincast, Extension
4. Grigori Archmage Mobility, Enchantment, Shadow, Twincast, Extension
5. Svart Alazkan*
5. Calabim Sphener and Paladins
6. Chalid or Empy High-Priest
7. Baron*
8. Elohim Corlindale
9. Gibbon
10. Hemah
11. Yvain*
12. Other Mind, Shadow or Chaos Archmages and Units that cast Heal (Empy Druids?*)
13. Assassins* (1. Amurite, 2. Svart, 3. Bals, 4. Sidar...)
14. Horse Heroes
15. Dwarven Druids* (so cheater, not that fun - like Tsunami and Crown which should all only be on world units)
One 80% destruction of everything around you is enough for everyone to deal with.

Path: Total Top Units (IMMHO)

Recon*: 6
Arcane: 6
Divine: 1
Melee: 1 (and it requires divine)
Horse: 0 (Only if hero is on divine or recon line, really. haha)


Oh yea, melee is sooo good. Enjoy that SoD

I predict that people will want to find room for Eaters (see: 12.), Shadows (see: 13.)... ? Perhaps we can haggle over who's assassins are best.

 

[MrPopov]

what does enhancement mean?

 

[Ecofarm]

what does enhancement mean?

Oops, I meant (spell) extension. Too many enzyte commercials?

So... adjustments, additions, changes and/or opinion? Something totally different? Perhaps we need a thread for top 10-20 units. I think recon discussion is spent.

 

[Zechnophobe]

1. Fireball Weilding Gargoyles.

Fast, Affordable, good for both offense and defense. Completely mass produceable, and often start with 12 strength to boot.

 

[Uberness]

In your list for most useful units, I think you forgot to include Pyre Zombies in the melee list, and Death knights in mounted, although it's infernal only, there rather insanely good, and you might not get many flashy abilities for melee troops, but you still get some good raw power depending on how you buff them (Rune/Order priests, enchanted blade and so on)

 

[Blackmantle]

Ecofarm rather doesn't like early units / fast rushes as far as i know.
That why i belive he didn't put in anything low-tier. Thats why pyre Zombies / Rathas and the like dont appear i guess... So dont look for them.

Otherwise copper Warriors win hands down. Along with Hippus Horsemen, Svart hunters and fast Axemen / Swordsmen for a civ with Enchantment Mana or special powers (like Pyre Zombies) but are they really that fun...?
Problem though is when you don't play on 1 landmass (or with separate areas like with creation which i do play very often) or on very large maps in difficulties above emperor on normal speed or quick speed that is not all so much hot anymore.
(AI might not be able to handle the naval part very well right now. But you better brace yourselves for the day it will, some day soon. I have lots of confidence, that the FFH-Team will code some solid Naval-AI.)

While i don't agree fully on ignoring early powerhouses completely (at least for a list that compares powerful units, beeing a builder myself and neglecting early military for mid/late-game powerhouses most of the time) I also like the powerful Tier 3 and 4 options that set FFH 2 appart from Vannilla / non-fantasy-mods. Since early rush is so obviously powerful its not worth to list it explicitly.


@ Ecofarm: Mounted Line might not contain lots of top units and flashy fun to play with tools but up to war chariots its a solid line overall for military power and some interesting economic options (tech-trading beeing the most important but not the only one) not least for the ride with its whopping +10 XP bonus. (together with a hippodrome from the same tech Level 5 Units out of the box are not all that hard to achive. And then they are truly scary + earlier than most other top-units.) Also with a bit of luck War-Elephants are available and they do pack a fearsome punch on par with a good Tier 3 Unit at a time of early Tier 2 for other civs. Thats what earns the mounted line its fair place in the game (even for non-mounted focus civs like Hippus or Kuoritates.). + Catching a Zoo early is a fun mechanic. (At least for single-player)

@ charleswatkins: Fawns/Satyrs are the replacement of elven archers and they seem much more powerful / interesting to me. Also back then Priests (which had been one of the optional upgrades if i don't misrecollect) were far less powerful so the options seemed nice but don't really compare to 9/4 animal-dominating city attackers speeding through any terrain that is forested.
Even though i have to agree that at that place in the tech-tree they were an interesting use of archery units that did have a use.

 

[Ecofarm]

1. The list is "fun" units, not just units that are OP for their time.

2. Are Pyres or copper warriors more fun than any of the units on that list? No. Those units all do super-cool stuff that is unique to FFH. They are not just bts units that are slightly early and OP because of promotions being doubled. I know, I know, pyres explode... that's pretty cool but not compared to what the units on that list do.

3. How are fireball gargoyles any different than a stack of fire2-mages and champions? Could you get any more basic than macemen and trebs?

Early doesn't count for "fun"; I can start advanced classic. If I wanted to slam blobs of warriors, axemen and catapults together I could get a game in bts of 10 people in five minutes via gamespy. Warriors are not "fun". It's not like "oooh, what a unit!" I want to summon invisible move5 HN pillagers, cast domination, twincast wonders with spellstaff, hide on peaks, vitalize, blind, charm, command, snatch weakened units from the jaws of life and other amazingly cool stuff like that.

Exploding axemen and macemen that cast fireball are pretty cool but dey aint all dat.

 

[Zechnophobe]

3. How are fireball gargoyles any different than a stack of fire2-mages and champions? Could you get any more basic than macemen and trebs?

They are both of those things in a single unit? You can beat face in with chunks of marble that spew out flame? It's always rather impressive when you've got like 20 or more of the things, and you are both unassailable and unstoppable at the same time .

 

[rocklikeafool]

I forget what they were called, but there used to be Archers of Leaves or some such. They had an interesting upgrade path and I'd like to see them come back. Wouldn't mind seeing a Dwarf hammer thrower or a Barbarian spear chucker either.

That'd be really nice. Add some archery diversity.

And I've thought for while that the Recon/Archery trees have needed a boost. However, I will maintain that the Melee line shouldn't be diminished in any way, shape, or form.