Is there a Reason to be anything but Amurites?

[Bill Bisco]

Alright so I made an earlier thread about Elves being quite powerful. But then playing a game against the Amurites and then playing the Amurites myself a couple of times; I realized something:

Why would I want to be anything but the Amurites? I mean, they have the ultimate unit: the Firebow. The Firebow summons Fireball which can remove enemy defenses and it can attack stacks and cause unlimited collateral damage. I mean, in old Fall From Heaven Vampires could learn Death 2 Sorcery which was cast on a tile and every creature on that tile was damaged, and creatures could be destroyed by the spell.

Since then almost every spell has been nerfed so that they do max damage to a stack, yet fireball has no max damage. So, I have no incentive to build anything else but Firebows since they are the one unit that can conquer the game.

Am I missing anything? Is there any other civ that is comparable to the power and utility of the Firebow? Vampires summoning specters is nice, but they're not as good as Firebows.

Peace,
Bill

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You know, Vampires can now learn to summon Spectres, which also have no damage cap plus they have affinity.


We won't have to sit through 21 of these type threads as you rediscover each civ, will we?

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Aren't the Amurites one of the "aww, they're a bit nerfy" type civs when people come to ranking them?

Personally, I never got it going with the Amurites. I remember I had bright-eyed dreams of a Firebow horde wiping out all of man, orc and dwarf kind ... then I realised how expensive Bowyers is and how that leaves me choosing between Bowyers or the Magic line.

I don't think you're missing anything, Fireball is one of the "top" spells, but it's a long ways to go to get to Firebows - I imagine life gets significantly more amusing once you get there though

 

[Skyre Noktis]

Firebows are nice, so is Govannon, but the Amurites don't get any significant advantages until *very* late in the game. Also, it's not like plenty of other civs don't get massive advantages at some point in the game; for example...

Luchuirp: Blasting Workshops
Sheaim: Pyre Zombies
Clan: Warrens

etc.

All of these things seem overpowered at first, but they're balanced out by the fact that all the other civs have powerful game mechanics of their own to exploit.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The most direct comparison to the firebows would be the Luchuirp's fireballing golems, available at sorcery.

Sorcery costs about as much as bowyers (cheaper but with a bit more prereqs). More beneficial outside of those two units though. Slight advantage luchuirp.

Fireballing wood golems are cheaper and stronger than firebows but require 2 buildings instead of 1, are stuck at 1 movement and have slightly weaker fireballs. Slight advantage amurites. The Luchuirp can eventually build more advanced golems with fireball though.

Luchuirp have a much stronger game leading up to those techs, with financial for a serious economic boost, engineers from the world spell to boost production a lot and give more GP than a philosophical leader, and an extra health + happiness from turn 1 due to palace mana to further boost them in both areas. Huge advantage for them there. They'll get their fireballs a lot faster and are less likely to die to an early rush or something.

 

[Worm4life]

Looking forward to the "Is there a reason to play anything but financial Lanun?" thread.

 

[popejubal]

...And when Govannon teaches the Firebows Earth I, then they'll upgrade to Earth II on their first promotion and cast Stoneskin.

Firebows with Stoneskin = YIKES!

Until they reach Bowyers (a very expensive tech on a branch of the tech tree that they don't have any particular reason to head down otherwise) or Arcane Lore (also expensive, but easier for me to reach since I enjoy Great Sages so much), they don't have anything especially noteworthy and their traits don't do very much to help them out until that point.

They have outstanding units once Govannon starts teaching everyone Earth I, Mind I, Death I (other spells are good too, but those are the biggest IMHO). Stoneskin is good for any unit, Inspiration cast by garrison units in every city is a lovely addition to your empire and near infinite skeletons is lovely.

Also, any other Channeling III units can learn bigger spell spheres from Govannon as well. Druids, High Priest of [whatever], Religious Heroes, captured Channeling III units, etc can all cast rank III spells once they get the XP to bump up the spells that Govannon teaches them.


Unfortunately, until they get Govannon or Firebows (or both), they're fairly weak compared to everyone else. I used to hear complaints when I had the time and money to play collectible card games: "[Faction X/Mana Type/strategy Y] is broken because no one can beat it!" One of the things that I like about Fall From Heaven is that everything is overpowered/broken. And when everything is overpowered, then really nothing is.

Every race has their own thing and I do think that a couple of races need to be bumped up just a bit (Amurites and Grigori in particular), every race can do really great, fun things and every race has a legitimate shot at winning any particular game as long as they don't get hosed by the terrain at the game's start.

 

[Bill Bisco]

You know, Vampires can now learn to summon Spectres, which also have no damage cap plus they have affinity.


We won't have to sit through 21 of these type threads as you rediscover each civ, will we?

Yes, but spectres don't cause collateral damage and can't bombard a city. Furthermore spectres have affinity and fireball has affinity but Amurites start with Fire Mana whereas Calabim don't start witih death. So the win advantage goes to the Amurites.

@Skyre Noktis: Warrens is nice but not that great. The disadvantages (-10% science) and no libraries keep Warrens from being really useful unless you're going Veil rush with prophecy of Ragnarok.

Pyre Zombies aren't that great either. Plus the Sheaim are slow builders compared to the other civs.

All the other civs don't have powerful mechanics to exploit. The Doviello suck and Hippus are straight better. The Orcs suck and Hippus are straight better. The Illians suck except for their worldspell.

I'll take a look at Sorcery Golems from Luchuirp and compare. Anyway, there won't be a Lanun compare since I prefer philosophical and I don't think Lanun have a Unique Fireballing unit.

I wonder if I'm getting through here or if you all have played the game too much. But the idea that a civ needs only 1 unit to win the game is very awesome. The Answer to every problem is "Needs Moar Firebowz!"

Peace,
Bill

 

[readercolin]

No, fireballs don't have affinity. They are ALWAYS 4 strength. They can (at the most) get up to 6 strength if the summoner has combat 5, but that is it.

Now, as for amurites being OP? I would have to say no. Not only no, but HELL no. If anything, they are one of the weakest civs in the game. Why? Well, you can spend all your time and beakers going down, getting govornnan, grabbing firebows, etc. With the same amount of beakers I can probably snatch phalinxes. Champion spam + phalinx lead = dead amurites. And to top it all, the amurites have a fairly weak economy. Which means that generally, not only am I pouring fewer beakers down required techs while others are going up one line, but they have more beakers to be PUTTING down those lines.

The best way to play the amurites is as dain, running an agristocracy (agrarian aristocracy - farm spam and use the extra food to feed great sages, plus have the commerce from the farms to be able to pay for some stuff). The only way to get down the sorcery line in any kind of a hurry is to spam great sages and bulb down it. In the end though, it still has trouble matching other civs and their strategies.

-Colin

P.S. Yes, the amurites gripe me. Thats why I'm currently writing an enhancement mod for them. Maybe sometime soon school will leave me alone long enough to get some real progress done on it.

 

[loffenx]

They are purple, hello?

 

[JonathanStrange]

Purple? Say no more. Still...Firebows with Stoneskin...a late game menace...say no more.

No, really, say no more.

On to the "Is the a Reason to be anything but Khazad?" thread. I may command them soon so I need lots of contradictory advice!

 

[Lascivious]

All the other civs don't have powerful mechanics to exploit. The Doviello suck and Hippus are straight better. The Orcs suck and Hippus are straight better. The Illians suck except for their worldspell.

Must resist... Temptation... To feed... Troll...

Ahh screw it!

Powerful game mechanics?
Calabim: Vampires + agriculture + happiness = GG. QED.
Lanun: Huge coast economy + OO
Bannor: Crusade (I love this)
Khazad: Able to outproduce Crusadin' Bannor and compete with Clan, hammerwise.
Luchuirp: str 10 + 50% units that can cast fireball.

slightly less powerful are

Balseraphs: Puppets + Domination. And a freaky army.
Illians: Priests of winter and stasis can garantee victory in a war.
Sidar: Awesome specialists.
Grigori: Powerful mages.

 

[Worm4life]

If anyone needs help it's the Doviello. Same vulnerability as the Clan of Embers with much weaker strengths. They're gimped in the long run and the only early boost they get is starting with one strength 4 unit. Not needing unit specific buildings is probably the weakest civ bonus in the game since you'd want to specialize industry cities anyway. At best it saves you 10 turns building a training yard at bronze working. Their world spell is like a single use warrens.

 

[Lascivious]

Not needing unit specific buildings is probably the weakest civ bonus in the game since you'd want to specialize industry cities anyway..

Specialization is very nearly dead in FfH. There are so few hammer/commerce enhancing buildings and they cost so much that it's usually better just to make more units.

The Doviello are not about specialization. They are about quickly integrating new conquests into their war machine to fuel rapid expansion.

 

[heisenberg]

Actually, I'm not exactly a "fan" of firebows frankly. I'd rather do a rush to Govannon at Arcane, and really, any priest would be able to almost replicate what firebows can do since they get channelling II too (except maybe the defensive bonuses).
Bowyers isn't exactly cheap, but Priesthood is practically a necessity anyway for any religion save CoE, especially if you intend to eventually get 4 more "archmages" through druids

slightly less powerful are

Balseraphs: Puppets + Domination. And a freaky army.

Sorry to nitpick though.... but Bals deserves to be way up there with the rest... =D
Keelyn is a straight ban in the MP games I play. Summoner + Puppets is...... broken.
Any archmage hero with twincast = double the puppets which can twincast double the summons with Summoner duration. Do the math.

 

[Worm4life]

Specialization is very nearly dead in FfH. There are so few hammer/commerce enhancing buildings and they cost so much that it's usually better just to make more units.

The Doviello are not about specialization. They are about quickly integrating new conquests into their war machine to fuel rapid expansion.

Are newly conquered Doviello cities really going to compete with industry specialized Clan warren cities?

I make the comparison because Doviello are meant to be played in the same "rush rush rush because your long term is gimped" fashion but their rushing is noticeably weaker than Clan. Even later on I'd take strength 8 champions over a strength 19 hero at machinery any day, especially for a research weak civ.

The real problem with Doviello is that they boil down to "Clan of Embers, but worse"

 

[popejubal]

I'll take a look at Sorcery Golems from Luchuirp and compare. Anyway, there won't be a Lanun compare since I prefer philosophical and I don't think Lanun have a Unique Fireballing unit.

Sure they do. Hemah.

Lanun tech very quickly and they have surprisingly good production as well. They're an economic powerhouse and they do quite well with Octopus Overlords giving them even more sea power. Hemah a Chanelling III caster and he comes at the same tech as Govannon, but the Lanun can get to Arcane Lore quite a bit faster than the Amurites on most maps.

 

[Bill Bisco]

No, fireballs don't have affinity. They are ALWAYS 4 strength. They can (at the most) get up to 6 strength if the summoner has combat 5, but that is it.

Now, as for amurites being OP? I would have to say no. Not only no, but HELL no. If anything, they are one of the weakest civs in the game. Why? Well, you can spend all your time and beakers going down, getting govornnan, grabbing firebows, etc. With the same amount of beakers I can probably snatch phalinxes. Champion spam + phalinx lead = dead amurites. And to top it all, the amurites have a fairly weak economy. Which means that generally, not only am I pouring fewer beakers down required techs while others are going up one line, but they have more beakers to be PUTTING down those lines.

The best way to play the amurites is as dain, running an agristocracy (agrarian aristocracy - farm spam and use the extra food to feed great sages, plus have the commerce from the farms to be able to pay for some stuff). The only way to get down the sorcery line in any kind of a hurry is to spam great sages and bulb down it. In the end though, it still has trouble matching other civs and their strategies.

-Colin

P.S. Yes, the amurites gripe me. Thats why I'm currently writing an enhancement mod for them. Maybe sometime soon school will leave me alone long enough to get some real progress done on it.

Colin,

Why don't you come on Hamachi on Friday at Channel FFHFFA and we can test your theory. Alternatively show up on Saturday for the RP game at Hamachi Channel FFHRP or FFHRPII and we can test your theory there as well.

 

[Bill Bisco]

Sure they do. Hemah.

Lanun tech very quickly and they have surprisingly good production as well. They're an economic powerhouse and they do quite well with Octopus Overlords giving them even more sea power. Hemah a Chanelling III caster and he comes at the same tech as Govannon, but the Lanun can get to Arcane Lore quite a bit faster than the Amurites on most maps.

Right, but Hemah is 1 unit (albeit a powerful one) whereas Firebows are many units (each one is quite useful in their own right). However, we can certainly test this with a Lanun vs. Amurites game on Hamachi

 

[Treason]

For all that I love the Amurites...

Hell yes, there's reasons to be anything else but them!

Each civ is fun in their own way. Try them out and see. If you're not liking them, then you just don't play to their strengths. Try a different strategy.

Hell, go for the elves, for a different game, at least. Svart or Loj, once they've beelined to FoL and adopted Guardian of Nature, they're a damned hard rock to crack. Even after setting their precious forests on fire.

They're fun top play as, too. Try having a 27 pop main city when everyone else is still sitting at 12, with no health or happiness problems due to Guardian and FoL. Great production and food benefits.